Life insurance and vaping - Premiums affected?

Status
Not open for further replies.

AnthonyB

Ultra Member
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 5, 2010
2,821
7,769
Sydney Australia
Hi all,

Recently I changed my life insurance to reduce my premiums and get better cover. I am acquainted with the kinds of questions insurers for life and permanent disablement ask. In the past questions regarding smoking habits would not include electronic cigarettes.

This time though the question regarding smoking included whether I use electronic cigarettes or nicotine replacement therapies.

How do you approach this question when applying for life insurance and how does disclosing your use of electronic cigarettes affect your premiums? Smoking usually doubles the premium because of the elevated risks of disease and death. Surely vaping doesn't add the same risk factor and hence greatly increased premium does it ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

AnthonyB

Ultra Member
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 5, 2010
2,821
7,769
Sydney Australia
Click the link up at the top of the screen that says VAPE LIFE-INSURANCE


A lot of insurance companies consider it the same as smoking.

I can't find the link. I am on Tapatalk. Not sure if that's why I can't see it ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

B2L

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 14, 2012
7,844
45,313
Jacksonville, FL
I can't find the link. I am on Tapatalk. Not sure if that's why I can't see it ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Vaping | Latitude Insurance

Here's their thread Rate Decrease!

I've got a policy with Prudential, they classify ecigs and occasional cigars in their own class. I don't get the best non smoking rates but they're substantially better than smokers rates.
 

Eskie

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 6, 2016
16,087
77,743
NY
You can always do a wash out, refrain from vaping, and provide the sample they request as part of the underwriting process. As long as there's no claim on the policy for two years, they can't drop it for that. Bottom line, it is insurance fraud and you take your chances. Just avoid a policy that requires a new medical evaluation if you want to increase or change your benefits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AnthonyB

stols001

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 30, 2017
29,338
108,118
I don't think I'd go for insurance fraud, personally, but given some other health conditions, the only life insurance I'm going to be able to get will be through my (non-vetted) health insurance via my job. I was really interested in the vape life insurance and it's pretty cool that you can get lowered rates, that way. Now, I'm not really a fan of insurance companies-- period-- whether it's health, life, or even auto functining in these unusual ways.... I really don't see the relevance-- State farm, I'm talking to you-- of jacking up my rates due to my credit score, where I LIVE (okay, so cars get stolen here frequently.... Unless I'm demonstrably a car thief, how is that MY fault?) etc.

Oh man, when I first got sober, I was living in Maryland and they have a "high risk state funded pool" where you can buy your insurance, and I had so many moving violations.... Not so much due to any kind of impaired driving, I'm just a terrible driver, LOL. For some reason I forget, my husband ended up on it too, for awhile.... Our premiums ended up being HIGHER than our mortgage, by FAR. That really sucked, so it's nice to see some options for vapers and former smokers that aren't insane. Why ruin any of that by insurance fraud/washing out, then using e-cigs. Well, I understand the logic but I guarantee the poor e-cig person who gets caught is going to get raked over the coils far MORE than a smoker.... We should be buying insurance from insurers who geunuinely ARE willing to say, "Okay, harm reduction, I'll give you a reduced rate."

Also, if you're going to commit insurance fraud like that, you'll have to tell each and every health professional you interact with that you neither smoke nor vape, and there are these things called autopsies if you keel over dead before the two year period (and no, none of us ever PLAN that but it happens), and I'm sure there are many ways to figure out what's been in your system, etc.

I don't know what the solution is, I'm neither an insurance specialist, nor a polititian (not that they have *any* clues whatsoever, either, it seems like) but is surely isn't what we have available in this country, that's for sure.

Anna
 
  • Like
Reactions: AnthonyB

Eskie

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 6, 2016
16,087
77,743
NY
Well, if you can successfully stop vaping for a week and test negative, you are a nonsmoker. If you choose to go back to a vape after, that's your personal decision. As long as you disclose you are an exsmoker and the time without a cigarette you will likely get a bit higher rate.

The problem insurance companies have is there's no way to tell where the nicotine originates. It could be a cigarette or an NRT. If it's an NRT they are not far off in assuming you may very well fall back to smokes. And as ssmokers generally die sooner, they have to figure that in. Vaping is a new way of nicotine consumption, and they not only poorly understand the harm reduction to figure it in, they have no way to even confirm you're vaping.

Unless you can demonstrate you're now an exsmoker for a considerable time, you'll still pay a higher rate.
 

AnthonyB

Ultra Member
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 5, 2010
2,821
7,769
Sydney Australia
Well, if you can successfully stop vaping for a week and test negative, you are a nonsmoker. If you choose to go back to a vape after, that's your personal decision. As long as you disclose you are an exsmoker and the time without a cigarette you will likely get a bit higher rate.

The problem insurance companies have is there's no way to tell where the nicotine originates. It could be a cigarette or an NRT. If it's an NRT they are not far off in assuming you may very well fall back to smokes. And as ssmokers generally die sooner, they have to figure that in. Vaping is a new way of nicotine consumption, and they not only poorly understand the harm reduction to figure it in, they have no way to even confirm you're vaping.

Unless you can demonstrate you're now an exsmoker for a considerable time, you'll still pay a higher rate.

Yeah I was asked the question about when I last smoked and I answered accurately.

We really are living in crude all or nothing, black and white times when it comes to vaping and it's impact on us as customers and members of the community. Charging vapers a double premium compared to a former smoker is highway robbery and puts us out of the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eskie

Eskie

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 6, 2016
16,087
77,743
NY
Yeah I was asked the question about when I last smoked and I answered accurately.

We really are living in crude all or nothing, black and white times when it comes to vaping and it's impact on us as customers and members of the community. Charging vapers a double premium compared to a former smoker is highway robbery and puts us out of the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know it sucks, but look at it this way. Insurance carriers know smokers have higher medical expenses and die earlier than nonsmokers. If a carrier charged you the nonsmoker rate they would lose money, so it's either raise everyone's premium to cover that (which the nonsmokers won't be happy about), or charge the smoker more to make up for the increased risk.

I'm not sure how things are in Australia, but some health insurance policies in the US do not charge smokers extra. Some do. That's do to Byzantine health insurance laws that are all over the place. They know smokers run up higher medical expenses

The same for life insurance policies. The actuaries calculate really accurate mortality tables, and that's how rates are set. Sure, you might be the smoker who lives to 90, or the nonsmoker who dies of cancer at 50, but on average, those outliers don't change the tables enough to effect the calculated risk.
 

stols001

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 30, 2017
29,338
108,118
I kind of *know* intellectually that some insurance premiums are set *reasonably*-- I'd be hard pressed, given that I *chose* to start smoking and whatnot, and I'm a bad driver so I can't exactly ARGUE to my car insurance company that I am not going to cost them more (I am). I do believe, however, that if we're going to apply that logic, it needs to be a) reasonable, not extortionate and b) there are plenty of other things people *do* that are unhealthy-- drinking too much caffiene, talking illegal drugs (I wonder if insurance companies test for that, I've never had non work related life insurance due to the fact that I was diagnosed with some health conditions that SUCK early on) obesity, etc., etc. And my crazy premiums (although, I do NOT believe I've had a moving violation or a crash for like, 5 years, I must be in less of a hurry as I age) were fair, maybe, BUT, that doesn't mean that emotionally, I have to LOVE IT.

That being said, as far as I'm concerned, health insurance OUGHT TO be exempt from these increased premiums (which I guess are coming) merely because as a smoker or not (and for the most part until recently, I was physically, at least, fairly healthy as a horse except high cholestorol which runs in my family and I eat well, am if anything slightly underweight, and exercise) BECAUSE, I max out my copays Every. Freaking.Year. There are also plenty of out of pocket costs in my life. SO, charging me more UPFRONT for premiums is unfair as I'm ALREADY paying far more than my healthy neighbor who's 21 year old, and is SIMPLY paying premiums. Health insurance, as a country, we need to freaking knuckle down and realize we aren't murderers, we should care about EVERY citizen getting health insurance, period, and there is NO NEED to raise everyone's rates, even. Health insurance companies are NOT starving to death. Hell, my sis paid about 12K to have her second child, 2 years ago.

In 1997, guess what it cost me to have my son? ONE $10 copay, for the ENTIRE pregnancy (I paid that copay my first visit to my OBGYN, and that was IT). Granted, I had a great job then, but if they were able to do that THEN, even with inflation, there's no need for such a sharp rise.

I both loved and hated Obamacare-- I believe in many of the principles in it and I KNOW he wanted to go further with it to socialized medicine (which I have encountered in Britain when I got sick, once, and it was the best and most chill ER visit I've ever experienced, LOL, no waiting, everyone was nice, I kept saying "I don't even live here, don't you want me to pay?" They handed me my meds as I left, no looking for a 24-hour pharmacy, even. Now, I GET that doing that here would just SLASH jobs as so much of the cost of health insurance is caused by billing/collections/ER vists by folks who would have done better in an urgent care, but they KNOW they can go to the ER for free, unlike an UC which will make you pay up front.... OMG my favorite thing said, ever, by a triage nurse to a chick who'd arrived for a pregancy test BY AMBULANCE, "You can get those at family dollar for a dollar. So, no. Go home, and no one is going to call an ambulance for you, either." So, I find *that* kind of stupidity equally as obnoxious as a COPD victim, KWIM?

That being said, a lot of the regulations put in place by Obamacare just caused GOUGING to the max, by the insurance companies, even though they were decent, reasonable requirements, like not penalizing someone for losing their job, etc, or being insolvent, or in a bad place, however, I just have a deep and abiding suspicion of the heath insurance companies, they are getting RICH and even IF Obamacare is repealed, I guarantee that premiums are not going to go DOWN, even by a penny, for at least 10 years if not more. I really wished they could have pushed through a more socialized medicine plan, though of course issues arise with that too. I just think this is ONE area where the free market either needs ENORMOUS regulatory action, or to be eliminiated. And, I'm not a socialist in ANY area except perhaps, medicine. At this point it's not really a *want*, healthcare, and by all indications so far we are heading into third world country territory at this point, with medicine, and that is NOT something I am remotely invested in.

I pay $150 a month for health insurance for my *entire family*, too, though my insurance coverage has changed, as EVEN the SOVREIGN nation I work for, a Native American Tribe, is feeling the push, but I can't work anywhere else without ending up paying like, $800 a month. That's pretty sad.

Anna
 

Beamslider

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 29, 2017
3,895
11,502
San Francisco
CO2 blood levels and oxygen levels are different in smokers vs vapers only. They could tell the difference if they wanted to do so with blood tests.

Nicotine is likely to be detectable for as long as 10 days after consuming. CO2 levels and Oxygen take longer to change back to normal after stopping smoking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AnthonyB

Eskie

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 6, 2016
16,087
77,743
NY
CO2 blood levels and oxygen levels are different in smokers vs vapers only. They could tell the difference if they wanted to do so with blood tests.

Nicotine is likely to be detectable for as long as 10 days after consuming. CO2 levels and Oxygen take longer to change back to normal after stopping smoking.

CO2 levels are affected by many factors, from abnormal acid/base levels in your body as a result of type 1 diabetic patients with poor sugar control to a person hyperventilating. Oxygen levels are affected by anything from bad COPD, whether from smoking or not, to an asthma attack or a heart attack. Neither of those tests will indicate smoker vs. vaper.

Yes, the metabolites from regular nicotine infection can be measured up to 10 days after last use.
 

stols001

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 30, 2017
29,338
108,118
Nope. My dad was a geneticist, in the company that did the first gene therapy experiment, on the bubble kids with no immune systems. They all got CURED. Is it their fault that they freaking were born with no immune system and are we in China now where all those kids should have been exposed on a mountain-top? That's TOTAL BS. And they would have had to have been, as practically NO families dealing with THAT illness could have afforded premiums to hospitalize their kid their entire life in hospital rooms with negative air pressure?

I am NOT in the desire or business of THROWING AWAY PEOPLE because they have inborn genetic syndromes and/or made poor decisions during their youth years that they have trouble getting away from. That's pathetic. I think there are some arenas where the *shiny happy lovely and healthy* standard should be applied, like life insurance, but HEALTH insurance is *not* one of them.

I know parents who sell blood plasma on a routine basis to afford their kids meds. I really hate this idea and am trying not to HATE you or wish a genetic illness on you *which I have* and have really done the best I possibly can to manage. That's a HORRIBLE idea.

Anna
 

dcdozer

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 26, 2015
402
1,188
Northern VA
CO2 levels are affected by many factors, from abnormal acid/base levels in your body as a result of type 1 diabetic patients with poor sugar control to a person hyperventilating. Oxygen levels are affected by anything from bad COPD, whether from smoking or not, to an asthma attack or a heart attack. Neither of those tests will indicate smoker vs. vaper.

Yes, the metabolites from regular nicotine infection can be measured up to 10 days after last use.
I got insurance through Latitude, and my rates were cut SIGNIFICANTLY even though nicotine was found in my system. There are bio-markers they can and do test for to determine if you've had any analogs. I can't remember what those biomarkers were, but I'm sure that they tested for them before giving me such a massive reduction in my premium. (The insurer I got through Latitude was the same one I already had).
 
  • Like
Reactions: AnthonyB

dcdozer

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 26, 2015
402
1,188
Northern VA
They only do an autopsy if the means of death is not known or a suspected homicide....
And they do actually have insurance for vapers. My policy says non-smoking, records me as a vaper, and nicotine was found in my blood sample. No lies, just a good insurance policy!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: AnthonyB

AnthonyB

Ultra Member
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 5, 2010
2,821
7,769
Sydney Australia
Problem is if you die, they will do a autopsy and detect nic in your system and will assume you lied and smoked. Bottom line your policy will be dismissed.

There really needs to be a more informed and fairer system of life insurance for vapers. The current indiscriminate premium calculation for vapers in line with smokers prices vapers out of the market. The smokers premiums for Life insurance applied to vapers reduces the value of life insurance to vapers to the point that it is not worth having it.

Hopefully in coming years and with better awareness and research results, vaping will be priced in accordance with its risk factors and not the risk factors of a smoker. The current system is crude and inaccurate.

Someone above said something that makes sense in that coffee and other risk activities are not used in premium calculation, so why should vaping ? Vaping after all, on presently known research is no more harmful for you than caffeine or other legal substances which are not taking into account.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: Robino1
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread