Lung Damage From Vaping Resembles Chemical Burns

[jlazarus]

Researchers at Mayo have undertaken the first "study" of lung tissue from 17 vaping-related-lung-injury cases (not my description). Findings are somewhat scary actually, as they are saying that in these 17 cases (biopsied tissue - 17 patients, 2 of whom died), none of the patients had what they would describe or confirm as lipioid pneumonia.

We've been hearing for weeks now this was lipoid pneumonia / lung injury due to inhalation of Vitamin E.

This "study" is basically saying hold up.....more to this folks. (I had read somewhere else about fungicide myclobutanil, which turns into hydrogen cyanide at a certain temperature - but I would have thought cyanide would kill rather fast....like...within hours, not drawn out over days/weeks).

Lung Damage From Vaping Resembles Chemical Burns, Report Says

From the article:

**The lung damage in some people who have become ill after vaping nicotine or marijuana products resembles a chemical burn...

** The injuries also look like those seen in people exposed to poisons like mustard gas, a chemical weapon used in World War I...

**Larsen said the Mayo researchers saw no signs of oil accumulating in the lung tissue. Instead, they saw many immune cells called macrophages with what he described as “the fine, foamy-looking appearance that is characteristic of chemical injuries.”

Read full article at the link.

 

[Vapntime]

https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMc1913069/suppl_file/nejmc1913069_appendix.pdf

That's very worrying, I was happy to concede that the THC issue was separate from normal vaping and it still might be, however, I wouldn't be trying any new products/eliquids at this stage. Stick to what you know or go unflavoured if you must.

 

[zoiDman]

...

From the article:

**The lung damage in some people who have become ill after vaping nicotine or marijuana products resembles a chemical burn...

...

Here is the Problem with the Above Statement.

It is Based on what an Individual said they Used. Or for the cases of "Nicotine Only", what they said they Didn't Use.

This is called a "Fallacy of Foundation". That conclusions are Solely drawn from the Assumed Presumption that the Initial Premise is True.

But if the Premise is Not True, then all the Causality and All the Science that supports the Conclusion is False. And, of course, the Conclusion is False.

I think you will find that there is a Significantly Large segment of THC users who are Not willing to Admit publicly that they use THC. Especially in those who are Under 18. And Especially in States where THC use is Illegal.

There is a Stigma of THC use that many would like to Avoid when it comes to having their Children know. Or their Children's Teachers. Or their Boss. Or their Church. Or their ....

There is Also the Small issue that the Vast Majority of people who have gotten Sick or Died Have Said that they Did use THC. And this TCH has Overwhelmingly been reported that it came from illegal "Street Carts".

So I would be Very Cautious to lump Nicotine Only e-Cigarette User into this group of Individuals who have gotten Sick or have Died.

Unless the Intent is to throw Retail e-Cigarette Use under the Bus. In which case, All of these people getting Sick or have Died is the Perfect Bus.

 

[Stubby]

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco and Alcohol News Analysis and Commentary: New Mayo Clinic Study Further Implicates Contaminated THC Oils in Respiratory Disease Outbreaks and Refutes Claim that Store-Bought Nicotine E-Liquids are Involved

There is nothing I can add to this.

 

[Vapntime]

Here is the Problem with the Above Statement.

It is Based on what an Individual said they Used. Or for the cases of "Nicotine Only", what they said they Didn't Use.

This is called a "Fallacy of Foundation". That conclusions are Solely drawn from the Assumed Presumption that the Initial Premise is True.

But if the Premise is Not True, then all the Causality and All the Science that supports the Conclusion is False. And, of course, the Conclusion is False.

I think you will find that there is a Significantly Large segment of THC users who are Not willing to Admit publicly that they use THC. Especially in those who are Under 18. And Especially in States where THC use is Illegal.

There is a Stigma of THC use that many would like to Avoid when it comes to having their Children know. Or their Children's Teachers. Or their Boss. Or their Church. Or their ....

There is Also the Small issue that the Vast Majority of people who have gotten Sick or Died Have Said that they Did use THC. And this TCH has Overwhelmingly been reported that it came from illegal "Street Carts".

So I would be Very Cautious to lump Nicotine Only e-Cigarette User into this group of Individuals who have gotten Sick or have Died.

Unless the Intent is to throw Retail e-Cigarette Use under the Bus. In which case, All of these people getting Sick or have Died is the Perfect Bus.

But you missed the point:

None of the patients had what they would describe or confirm as lipoid pneumonia.

We've been hearing for weeks now this was lipoid pneumonia / lung injury due to inhalation of Vitamin E

**Larsen said the Mayo researchers saw no signs of oil accumulating in the lung tissue. Instead, they saw many immune cells called macrophages with what he described as “the fine, foamy-looking appearance that is characteristic of chemical injuries.”

 

[Katya]

**Larsen said the Mayo researchers saw no signs of oil accumulating in the lung tissue. Instead, they saw many immune cells called macrophages with what he described as “the fine, foamy-looking appearance that is characteristic of chemical injuries.”

I'm as confused as everyone else:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/10/03/vaping-lung-injuries-top-cases-deaths-rise/

"Kevin Davidson, a pulmonologist at WakeMed Health & Hospitals in Raleigh, N.C., and the senior author of the CDC study on lipoid pneumonia, said the discrepancy could be related to the way the most recent biopsies were processed. The routine way of processing tissues can remove lipids, and when that happens, it masks the characteristics of lipoid pneumonia. “You won’t be able to see the lipid” in the immune cells, he said.

The need for special handling of biopsies was raised during a call between federal health officials and state officials and clinicians in late August, Davidson said. At that time, a pathologist from the FDA mentioned the need for special processing. The CDC’s website also states that if a lung biopsy is obtained, the routine pathology processing, which includes formalin-fixation and paraffin-embedding, “can remove lipids.”"

 

[Vapntime]

Does anyone read anymore? Read the report it deals with these issues plus more. However, this wasn't mentioned in the newspaper article or that the mayo clinic looked at other methods besides biopsy. There is obviously all sorts of things going on atm but can we not look critically at all the evidence.

'While it is difficult to discount the potential role of aerosolized lipid accumulation in this injury, no cases showed coalescence of lipid into large droplets as occurs in exogenous lipoid pneumonia. This is notable, as water-insoluble oil droplets tend to have high interfacial tension that facilitates droplet coalescence, and even fine emulsifications of insoluble oils and water will eventually phase separate with time and form larger oil droplets14 . Our observation is also concordant with the recently reported absence of typical radiologic findings of fat accumulation in the lung that would be expected in exogenous lipoid pneumonia5'.

No one is saying they have the answer not even the mayo clinic if you read it.

Here is a very recent one:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1913069?query=recirc_mostViewed_railB_article

 

[Dougiestyle]

The propagandist media is just being told to say "vaping". Apples and oranges being lumped together to further the idiot agenda of the state profiticians.

 

[zoiDman]

But you missed the point:

None of the patients had what they would describe or confirm as lipoid pneumonia.

We've been hearing for weeks now this was lipoid pneumonia / lung injury due to inhalation of Vitamin E

**Larsen said the Mayo researchers saw no signs of oil accumulating in the lung tissue. Instead, they saw many immune cells called macrophages with what he described as “the fine, foamy-looking appearance that is characteristic of chemical injuries.”

Who's Missing What?

I never said that Vitamin E was the Sole Cause of why ever one of these People got Sick or Died. It was the Media that Implied that.

And it further Supports just how Dangerous applying a Fallacy of Foundation can be.

All I know for sure is the Vast Majority of those who gotten Sick/Died said the used THC Street Carts.

And I Question out of the Small percentage of those who said they used Nicotine Only, just How Many haven't been Completely Honest reporting what they have Actually Used.

 

[zoiDman]

The propagandist media is just being told to say "vaping". Apples and oranges being lumped together to further the idiot agenda of the state profiticians.

I Don't even think the Media needed to be told what to Say.

Because they are Pretty Damn Good, and have a Lot of Experience, slamming e-Cigarettes way before all the people Starting Getting Sick.

To them, lumping Nicotine e-Cigarettes into All this and then running FUD Story and FUD Story could be done using Muscle Memory.

 

[Dougiestyle]

Demo-rats and ....... news outlets get their poop from like-minded "power" in the gooberment. Somebody has their hand in somebody's pockets within the social engineering departments.

* Spoken in my most soothing conspiracy theorist voice

 

[jandrew]

Does anyone read anymore? Read the report it deals with these issues plus more. However, this wasn't mentioned in the newspaper article or that the mayo clinic looked at other methods besides biopsy. There is obviously all sorts of things going on atm but can we not look critically at all the evidence.

'While it is difficult to discount the potential role of aerosolized lipid accumulation in this injury, no cases showed coalescence of lipid into large droplets as occurs in exogenous lipoid pneumonia. This is notable, as water-insoluble oil droplets tend to have high interfacial tension that facilitates droplet coalescence, and even fine emulsifications of insoluble oils and water will eventually phase separate with time and form larger oil droplets14 . Our observation is also concordant with the recently reported absence of typical radiologic findings of fat accumulation in the lung that would be expected in exogenous lipoid pneumonia5'.
...

Apparently, the absence of lipid droplets does not necessarily rule out exogenous lipoid pneumonia:

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco and Alcohol News Analysis and Commentary: New Mayo Clinic Study Further Implicates Contaminated THC Oils in Respiratory Disease Outbreaks and Refutes Claim that Store-Bought Nicotine E-Liquids are Involved
to wit:

Although the study authors opine that the pathological findings are not indicative of exogenous lipoid pneumonia, the basis for this conclusion is not clear. The authors' assertion seems to be based primarily on their failure to find "coalescent of lipid into large droplets." However, there are many previous reports of exogenous lipoid pneumonia in which the pathology examination did not report finding a coalescence of lipid into large droplets in the lung. The main finding in these previous studies (example) was the presence of lipid-laden macrophages, just as the primary finding in the current study was the presence of foamy (lipid-laden) macrophages. The radiographic findings in many of the cases and the finding of lipid-laden macrophages are consistent with a diagnosis of lipoid pneumonia in at least some of the observed cases. I think it is premature to rule out the significance of the inhalation of large quantities of viscous oil in the pathogenesis of the disease.