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Mechanical mods, protected batteries and protection chips

Discussion in 'New Members Forum' started by Niamh, Nov 6, 2013.

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  1. Thinking of buying a Kamry K100, I've read that Efest protected 18350s will fit in it, the vendor who I will buy it from sells it with a protection chip.

    My question is this- if you could fit a protected battery and a protection chip in a mechanical mod would it be possible to use both together?

    One vendor I spoke to said that the two types of protection could not be used together as they would conflict with each other, another vendor said that you could use protected battery plus protection chip.

    I've heard that battery protection can sometimes fail so would like to add the chip in mechanical mods as well, if this is possible, but I'm not sure if it's only made for use with unprotected IMRs?
     
  2. BardicDruid

    BardicDruid Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 25, 2009
    Central Texas
    Actually if that's an actual Li-Ion protection chip and not just a fuse, it will need to be mounted on the battery not just stuck in the mod. If you use a protected battery it already has the chip mounted under the wrapper on top of the battery. The chip alone is rather useless unless you have the equipment and knowledge to be able to mount it. I remember when Li-Ion first came out and shortly there after the protection chip, the place we worked trained us on how to mount the chips, it's not for the faint of heart or lacking knowledge. If the chip comes with the mod, just toss it and use a protected battery, but make sure it's a chip and not a fuse.
     
  3. 440BB

    440BB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 19, 2011
    The Motor City
    I'm thinking it's a fuse, and it should work fine with a protected battery. Should the battery's protection circuit fail, it would add another layer of insurance against battery related heat, gasses, and with lithium ion batteries, flames.

    If you get additional batteries, it would be safer to get IMR or hybrid chemistry batteries, as they can't fail as violently as standard lithium ion batteries. The fuse will work with them too. They are also high drain, which is mandatory if you want to play with sub-ohm coil building later. AW IMR batteries are what I use in the K100, in all three sizes. Enjoy your new vape kit!
     
  4. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    Vape Safe Mod Fuses are always a good idea. They attach to the bottom of your battery via a magnet that is glued onto the fuse. Vape Safe Fuse

    Vapesafe Fuse.jpg

    There was a time not long ago when protected batteries were recommended for mods. With the advent of modern safe chemistry IMR & hybrid chemistry batteries, this is no longer valid.

    Current wisdom is safe chemistry batteries are recommended as safer alternatives to protected ICR batteries, for both regulated and mechanical mods. -- Reference: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/129569-rechargeable-batteries.html

    These are li-mn (Lithium Manganese) chemistry, also known by multiple names such as IMR, hybrid, "high drain", as well as "unprotected" batteries. They do not require the built-in protection circuits like the volatile (as in "flamable") chemistry of ICR li-ion batteries.

    Any battery can short circuit and go into thermal runaway. However, a safe-chemistry battery normally will only vent gas, while an ICR battery whose protection circuit fails can vent dramatically with hot gases and flames, sometimes with explosive force.

    battery_fire.jpg battery_failure.jpg Trustfire2.jpg

    Please be aware that there are also un-protected ICR (li-ion) batteries sold online. These should NEVER be used in any mod. These are only to be used in other applications such as flashlights and lap top computers.

    A list of recommended name-brand "safe-chemistry" IMR and hybrid batteries for either regulated or mechanical mods are in the first link below:

    Battery Basics for Mods: IMR or Protected?

    Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries

    Mechanical Mod Proper Usage Guide
     
  5. Thanks for the advice, I am considering purchasing IMRs, in the meantime I will use a Vape Safe fuse with my protected 18350s. Do people usually check their mods for shorts using a multimeter? I mean how regularly? The other stuff in the mechanical mod usage guide I do already, mainly, but I use my MVP to check atomizer resistance and am not really sure how to check with a multimeter- I mean I'm not sure what setting it needs to be on or anything (I know how to check battery voltages using one).
     
  6. tomzgreat

    tomzgreat Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    Chino California
    It all depends on the Amps and Watts you are vaping at.

    A protected Battery will cut off if you are vaping at SubOhm or high Amps.

    Protected Batteries are more dangerous then High Drain Technology Batteries, because you are depending on the manufacturer QC control to be perfect,also if the battery is compacted it can mess up the protection circuit. A ICR bursting into flames is not a pretty sight.

    The only safe batteries to use with a mechanical are Lithium Manganese Technology [IMR] or the Panasonic Hybrids that are rated at 10amp continuous and 16 amp peak.If you aren't willing to shell out the money to buy the right batteries to use with a mechanical then you shouldn't buy it.

    As for the Fuse, well it's a good idea but to be really safe you should use unprotected High Drain Batteries.
     
  7. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    The only thing that you can learn about a battery using a digital multimeter is checking the voltage coming out of the mod (should be at least 3.4 volts) and coming off the charger (no more than 4.2 volts).

    Routinely check the battery for signs of heat damage. Bubbling of the shrink wrap, deformity of the ends, puncture deformities caused by the mod itself. A battery should never be hot to touch, nor should the fire switch or the mod. If anything besides the atomizer becomes hot, stop using it immediately. There's a short circuit or hard short present.

    Larger batteries (18650) are safer than smaller ones (18350).
     
  8. It's not about the cost, I emailed battery university, they said that no battery should be sold without protection, they said that whoever is selling unprotected IMRs is irresponsible because all batteries need protection. Everyone in the vaping community is saying unprotected IMRs, yet battery university tell me do not buy these. To be honest I don't know what to do but you can understand why I went with ICR protected
     
  9. madqatter

    madqatter Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 14, 2013
    Virginia
    I checked my mods for shorts when I took them out of the box and inspected them. I would definitely test them again if I made any modifications to them.

    It depends on what kind of juice attachment you're using. Here's one of the videos I watched about using a multimeter:


    (I have the kind of meter that requires me to set the range.)
     
  10. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    That makes no sense to me at all. IMR batteries have never been protected, and I have never heard of a "protected IMR battery". :rolleyes: What's sad about that is Battery University has been THE go-to battery authority. I wonder if you got a noobie person answering your questions?

    Using an unprotected IMR or hybrid battery in a regulated mod should be reasonably safe because the mod itself has built-in protection in the processor. It will detect a short circuit and either refuse to fire or turn itself off automatically. Being that IMR and hybrid batteries are safer chemistry than a ICR battery even with its own rudimentary protection circuit, I wonder if Battery University understands the application that we are dealing with using electronic cigarettes. :confused:

    A mechanical mod is an entirely different situation. These should have a Vape Safe Fuse whether you are using an IMR, hybrid, or protected battery, as there is no processor providing protection.

    ________________________________________​

    The following is from the second part of my blog "Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries".

    "Protected vs. Unprotected

    There is a common misnomer in the vaping community that a protected battery is safer to use than an unprotected battery. There is a belief that a protected battery will prevent you from over-drawing your battery and prevent it to explode or vent gas. I'm not certain where this belief started, but it needs clarification. A battery labeled as "protected" does not always prevent you from applying a higher current draw than it is capable of handling.

    The term "unprotected" is vague and often misunderstood. It can mean a "safe chemistry IMR or hybrid" that doesn't use a protected circuit, or an "unprotected ICR battery". Unprotected ICR batteries should NEVER be used in a mod; they are used in other applications such as flashlights or laptops. - Baditude

    The protection circuits in batteries vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, but primarily prevent you from over-discharging (using the battery past its minimum charge rating) or over-charging the battery. The "protection" moniker is not all-inclusive either. Some will provide just over-discharge protection, others have over-charge protection, and in some batteries over-current protection.

    You will have to hunt down the data sheet from the battery manufacturer to find exactly which protections are provided, or hope that your merchant has this listed online. Protected batteries are quite often longer in length than their unprotected counterpart. This is due to the additional circuitry that is embedded in the battery. Confirm measurements before you commit to purchasing.

    Now, this said, lithium ion batteries have what's called a PTC or Positive Temperature Coefficient circuit. This is built into the battery just above the positive terminal and is present regardless of any "protected" labels. The PTC is designed to raise the resistance of the battery as the temperature of the battery rises.

    The theory behind PTC is that as the resistance goes up, the current draw from the battery goes down - Ohm's Law. This helps prevent most accidents from becoming catastrophic, but it should not be relied on. The PTC is designed to be unobtrusive and you can still over-draw the battery if you aren't paying attention. The PTC circuits can also fail if exposed to static electricity or from a faulty charger. When a PTC fails, it often fails in a position which allows you to continue using the battery without fault."
     
  11. Great thank you, really useful
     
  12. good point, maybe they don't, it's rather new technology
     
  13. madqatter

    madqatter Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 14, 2013
    Virginia
    Based on things Baditude has said elsewhere, it's my understanding that using batteries the way we do is-- in pharmacists' terms-- "off label." :)
     
  14. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    This is entirely true. The batteries that we use in mods were not designed to be used in the application that we use them. Their original design was to be used with groups of batteries like in laptops, not as single cell batteries as we use them. In fact, some of the battery manufacturers are not so happy we are using single cells in tube mods. The fact that they are even available to us at all we can owe to the hardcore flashlight enthusiasts.
     
  15. aguy

    aguy Full Member

    Oct 10, 2013
    the cuse
    so im new to vaping, about a month, just ordered a igo-l to start building coils for my mvp-2. i really want to get a mech, just wanna understand as MUCH as i can first, and one thing i am stumped on is... why havent any battery manufactures made a "mod" specific battery for mechs and apv's? i mean its not like there isnt a demand for batteries, even if their a lil more expensive, seems like it should have been done by now to me. maybe being new i missed something on this subject, if so i apolagize.
     
  16. Dana A

    Dana A Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 25, 2012
    Iowa
    I didn't read this whole thread but just wanted to say GOOD FOR YOU OP for trying to be safe with mechs! Not everyone tries to be :)
     
  17. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    You have to realize that electronic cigarettes is a very new industry comparatively speaking. It has only just exploded (no pun intended) in the last couple of years. Mass-produced mods have been around for a few years, but not until the last couple of years have the number of manufacturers begun springing up with so many choices available to vapors. The vast majority of e-cigarette users worldwide are using cigalikes and ego batteries. Only a small minority of vapors are using mods, although this group is rising fast. Because e-cig forums tend to draw more hobbyists and enthusiasts, it "appears" like there are more vapors using mods than there really are comparatively.

    I sense that the big battery manufacturers in Japan (Panasonic, Sanyo, Samsung, & Sony) have begun creating the hybrid batteries which more fit our application, although the research for hybrids arose initially for their use in hybrid-powered automobiles.
     
  18. BardicDruid

    BardicDruid Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 25, 2009
    Central Texas
    Actually that came from manufacturer specs, the first protection circuits only protected against over current/short circuit. It wasn't until the mid 2000's that they added the overcharge and over discharge protection, it's an add on to the already present over current protection. Battery University explains it well, it is maintained by Cadex Electronics and they are the same type of company I used to work for when Li-Ion was first launched to the market.
     
  19. tomzgreat

    tomzgreat Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    Chino California
    I beg to differ,Vaping on Mechanical especially is very specialized use of Batteries with it's own challenges that don't apply to normal Battery Use.

    The chemistry of the battery is the protection. Lithium Manganese will heat up much slower then ICR technology. The other day I was at a Vapetober Fest and I put my now defunct ECD Meter in a mechanical Mod. Immediately the body started to heat up. There was time to unscrew the ECD Meter before anything happened. With a ICR who knows. I've had a high drain battery short in my pocket [from keychain] again I didn't get burned and was able to extract it before anything happened.

    So from the school of hard knocks I can testify that the LIMN Technologies and high drain offers the protection of heating up more slowly giving you time to recover from a short.

    BTW they don't know everything the Sony sony-us18650vtc3 is not per se protected but they've designed it that with a hard short the battery collapses!! I know one Vaper who hard shorted and can testify to this.
    $11.76 Sony US18650VTC3 18650 1600mAh 3.7V Rechargeable Li-ion Batteries (2-Pack) 2-pack - 30A discharge at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping

    Note- Currently There are issues in ordering batteries from FastTech
     
  20. tomzgreat

    tomzgreat Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    Chino California
    I found this Gem in another Post.

    They say a picture is worth a thousand words
    Below is a video of High Drain Batteries AW 1600 and the Hybrid Panasonic Cgr18640ch purposefully shorted.
    As you can see they didn't' burst into flames. It should be mentioned that this was done
    in an open air environment. I'm not sure about what would happen if encased in metal.

    This Video made me feel good because I've been using the Hybrid Panasonics and they didn't get as hot as the AW.

     
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