• What's your favorite mod?

    Interested in seeing what everyone has owned/tried!

    View thread

Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux

Status
Not open for further replies.

regal55

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,353
524
york,PA
Meh, I'll stick with Ozone 5.

Also, you should have implied there was a design flaw and offered an incorrect solution; this way he would be stealing a partially broken design that would require your help to fix. :D


Nah my point was it was no big deal to me, I don't think engineering or ideas, formulas are even 1% the cost of running a small business. The cost is time, labor, financials, sales/marketing, and finance. That's why DIY is so important. If next year we have to plant a patch of tobacco in our backyards then lets get prepared share the information. That's what makes this such I great forum. I've got my first net brewing at 110F on the kitchen table, now if I could only figure out how to build this KLF :( !
 

boomerdude

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
0.35 Oz. with one missing. I get 60-75 mls of concentrate from a full pack.

Just checked at lunch. $45 for the 150g tins here!! Unflipping believable. Highway robbery. I'll stick with the $13 pouches for now. I swear, if home extraction becomes huge, there'll be a real niche for tobacco-buying co-ops. It seems like sites like Leafonly sell the single varietals only by the pound for about $30, which is too much for me just starting out. They do have 1/4 lb samplers for $8, but not in all of the varieties.

On a better note, I tried an AS pre-rolled U.S. Grown (royal blue pack) analog for the first time. It was pretty good. Better than Original, but not quite as good as Organic or Perrique. Of course, it was on fire, so I couldn't really detect how the subtle nuances of the tobacco flavor would translate into a vape, but it did have some good depth and taste. I may save the rest of the pack for my first round of extractions. Anyone know the average net tobacco weight in a pack of AS (which is minus one now)?
 
Last edited:

checkum

Super Member
ECF Veteran
May 8, 2014
788
1,816
Missouri, USA
I received some extracts from Johni yesterday and I got to try two of them.
The first was Sutliff's Voodoo Queen. There is more to Voodoo going on with this tabacco, although it is rather magical.
It is a blend of what is called "Mocha Slices," Latakia, and Perique which was heat extracted.
It is not for the beginner or faint of heart. I, IMO, really enjoyed it. All I can say to Johni is "You Do Voodoo so well."
The second is another Sutliff tobacco called ZBC-245, which is a steamed black Cavendish using that wonderful Green River Burley as a base and is exposed to heat for a full 24 hours. The aroma leans toward the sweet side enough so it is not overpowering. It is definatly a smooth vape for anytime or all day. Johni heat extracted it. I am thoughly enjoying it as I writr this.
I also got the bright idea of mixing the two liquids together. I used approximately 75% ZBC-245 and 25% Voodoo Queen. That initself is a wonderfully satisfing vape! I will comment on the other extracts as soon as I have vaped these until the fire department comes, thinking all the smoke means a fire. :laugh:
 

regal55

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,353
524
york,PA
The second is another Sutliff tobacco called ZBC-245, which is a steamed black Cavendish using that wonderful Green River Burley as a base and is exposed to heat for a full 24 hours. The aroma leans toward the sweet side enough so it is not overpowering. It is definatly a smooth vape for anytime or all day. Johni heat extracted it.

Are you guys adding any sweetener to you Cavendishes or is there enough on the tobacco already? I imagine many of the commercial Cavendish's have sweetener added.



My first NEt using the 2 day 110F method, the jar has pennies underneath to lift off the hot bottom:

 
Last edited:

MikeNice81

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Feb 24, 2014
3,497
5,468
NC
Is it just me or do net juices get more gunky as you get deeper in the bottle?

I haven't tried anything new today. I do have 3m of silica wick coming today and about six cotton balls and three "facial rounds" that I boiled last night. I will be wicking some Kanger heads tonight. I'm thinking three should get me through a weekend with these homebrews.

I'm getting the itch to do my own extracts again. I am torn. There are so many great cigars I want to vape and yet, I'm afraid I'll end up smoking them instead. Also, I just don't know what I would do with a liter of finished liquid.

Maybe I could talk a local b&m into selling them as "limited edition" versions of their lines. :laugh:
 
Last edited:

billherbst

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 21, 2010
4,239
9,480
Florence, Oregon
www.billherbst.com
I started a batch of five pipe blend tobacco macerations today---one ounce of tobacco in each, with a solvent of 65pg/35vg. My intention is for a three-day heat-assisted steep in a warm water bath at 140° F. I’ve done two-day heat-assisted steeps with pipe tobaccos, but never a three-day steep. I guess I’m looking for the outer limits of good flavor extraction in moderately heated macerations.

Setting up the batch---getting the jars ready, making multiple sets of labels for the finished extract bottles so I can send out samples to my compatriots, mixing the tobacco and solvent (I stir only at the very beginning; once the tobacco slurry warms, I don’t disturb it, so as discourage excess disintegration of particulates into the solvent), heating the big pot of water to the right temperature---brought to mind a subject that has come up on the thread fairly recently.

As my experience grows, both vicariously through reading about tobacco and literally through making extract, it seems more and more obvious to me that nearly everything related to the cultivating, curing, and processing of tobacco over the past four centuries is directly tied to smoking it. Every historical advance in the art and business of tobacco production has been designed largely maximize the human experience of inhaling the smoke from burning tobacco into our lungs. Most of the myriad characteristics of wholesale and retail tobacco are aimed at this end, from cultivation (regions, soils, watering, pest control, from seed to harvest), through processing (curing, cutting, shaping, casing, topping with flavorings or other chemical additives such as nicotine, etc.) to the manufacture of finished products (pipe tobaccos, cigars, cigarettes/ryo) are dedicated mainly to inhaling the smoke from burning tobacco. “Smokeless” tobacco products---primarily chewing tobacco, snuff, and snus---are exceptions, of course, but they constitute a minority segment of the commercial tobacco marketplace.

Enter vaping. Except for the small percentage of vapers who use zero nicotine in their eliquids, most of us are essentially using a “smokeless” tobacco product. Is this safe? We don’t know. Most of us feel that vaping is safer than smoking or chewing tobacco, but vaping hasn’t been around long enough to allow the research studies that should eventually demonstrate its long-term effects on our health. In the meantime, I consider vaping to be a form of self-medication, at least for me personally.

As a person who produces homemade macerated extract flavorings from natural tobacco, I’m already aware that everything I read in descriptions of the various tobaccos I buy for extraction is connected to smoking. Traits such as burning (cool or hot), packing (loose or tight), and even flavorings (casings and toppings, room notes, designations such as aromatic, etc.) are all aimed directly at smoking and may not translate effectively or sometimes at all to the vaping experience.

I think it’s safe to say that tobacco producers, processors, and blenders are not thinking about vaping when they deal with tobacco as a consumer product. Flavoring companies are discovering that vaping is a potentially lucrative market, so progress is being made there, through eradication of substances used in flavorings (i.e., diketones like diacetyl) that may be harmful if inhaled. But even with the increase in smokeless tobacco products such as snus, tobacco itself remains largely a product designed for smoking.

If the vaping revolution continues at its current breakneck pace, perhaps this may change in the years ahead. I’m not sure about tobacco growers, but tobacco processors and blenders seem to me likely to begin adapting their products to account for the vaping experience rather than tuning solely to smoking. What would this look like? I don’t know, but I hope I’m around to find out.

In the meantime, I’m willing to put up with certain difficulties in translation or descriptions that don’t really apply to our uses. Even at this relatively early stage in the game, NETs are already far beyond synthetic tobacco flavorings in the pleasures they provide. Imagine how wonderful it would be if eliquid tobacco flavors, performance, and the overall vaping experience of tobacco could be significantly improved.

One of the pipe tobaccos in the maceration batch I started today is Hearth & Home Berry Nice. This is a Black Cav blend with a bit of Latakia that's steamed with the essence of wild berries, black currant, and blackberries. Online reviews were mixed at best, as many pipe smokers felt that the sweet fruit overwhelmed the tobacco. One reviewer who liked it described Berry Nice as “creamy berry cheesecake.” Some said “soapy aftertaste,” like a scented candle. But that’s based on smoking it, not vaping it. I bought an ounce knowing that I might not like the extract. But you can never tell beforehand with extractions. For four bucks shipped, it was worth a shot. We’ll see how it turns out.
 

BaccyFiend

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2014
140
227
New York, NY
Is it just me or do net juices get more gunky as you get deeper in the bottle?

Yes, I've noticed the same sometimes, as well as the opposite, where the juice at the end of the bottle is thinner and easier on coils. I attribute both to a disuniformity in the juice caused by my not shaking the bottles enough before using them each time.
 

MFToms59

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 19, 2012
1,547
3,837
Nevada
Just checked at lunch. $45 for the 150g tins here!! Unflipping believable. Highway robbery. I'll stick with the $13 pouches for now. I swear, if home extraction becomes huge, there'll be a real niche for tobacco-buying co-ops. It seems like sites like Leafonly sell the single varietals only by the pound for about $30, which is too much for me just starting out. They do have 1/4 lb samplers for $8, but not in all of the varieties.

On a better note, I tried an AS pre-rolled U.S. Grown (royal blue pack) analog for the first time. It was pretty good. Better than Original, but not quite as good as Organic or Perrique. Of course, it was on fire, so I couldn't really detect how the subtle nuances of the tobacco flavor would translate into a vape, but it did have some good depth and taste. I may save the rest of the pack for my first round of extractions. Anyone know the average net tobacco weight in a pack of AS (which is minus one now)?


I'm guessing you live in NYC proper, not the Burbs or New Rochelle area, but it's expensive there as well. Anyway, a 150G tin is ~5.29ozs, so just under ~$9.00 per oz isn't too bad. Most good Pipe Tobacco samplers are ~50G/ 1.5-1.75oz, and sell from ~$9.50 - ~$20.00 for some brands.

I agree sometime in the future, there may be Tobacco co-ops, or some site where small quantity samples can be purchased at a reasonable cost. Since there isn't, I think using the NET Swap Thread or creating a Tobacco Swap thread is the way to go at the moment.

Just guessing, an average weight on a pack of Analogs ~2.5 to 3ozs, including the package. Most people are willing to pay the $12-13 bucks without blinking an eye, and ~50% is some type of tax.
 

checkum

Super Member
ECF Veteran
May 8, 2014
788
1,816
Missouri, USA
Are you guys adding any sweetener to you Cavendishes or is there enough on the tobacco already? I imagine many of the commercial Cavendish's have sweetener added.



My first NEt using the 2 day 110F method, the jar has pennies underneath to lift off the hot bottom:


Cavandiish is cased with sweetneers already and I personally do not add any.
 

BaccyFiend

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2014
140
227
New York, NY
I'm guessing you live in NYC proper, not the Burbs or New Rochelle area, but it's expensive there as well. Anyway, a 150G tin is ~5.29ozs, so just under ~$9.00 per oz isn't too bad. Most good Pipe Tobacco samplers are ~50G/ 1.5-1.75oz, and sell from ~$9.50 - ~$20.00 for some brands.

I agree sometime in the future, there may be Tobacco co-ops, or some site where small quantity samples can be purchased at a reasonable cost. Since there isn't, I think using the NET Swap Thread or creating a Tobacco Swap thread is the way to go at the moment.

Just guessing, an average weight on a pack of Analogs ~2.5 to 3ozs, including the package. Most people are willing to pay the $12-13 bucks without blinking an eye, and ~50% is some type of tax.

Yup, Manhattan, where they've tried to tax smoking out of existence (which was a big impetus for me to start vaping instead). And now they want to tax e-cigs/liquid to make up for all of the lost revenue from vaping. I used to have family in NewRo (about 20 minutes north), and you might save $1.00-$1.50 a pack up there, but the taxes are pretty bad statewide. I'm done paying that 50% or more for something that has nothing to do with the value of the product.

I think a loose tobacco swap/PIF thread for home extractors is a fabulous idea.
 

Jerms

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 1, 2011
9,252
25,829
Fargo
Is it just me or do net juices get more gunky as you get deeper in the bottle?

That would be a result of improper shaking. What's improper shaking? Well, I'd say anything below 10 seconds of vigorous shaking everytime before using a bottle. Try timing yourself to see what 10-15 of shaking feels like, and like me, I think most will realise they aren't shaking their juice properly before using it.

As a dripper, I'm taking small amounts from the bottle on a regular basis. While I'm in the habit of shaking the bottle every time, the 1-2 seconds thats part of my habit probably isn't doing much, so I'm pretty used to the last several drops having different properties than the first several drops. I use 5ml or 10ml bottles in my current vaping stash, so it's not that big of a deal, but if I'm transfering from a big bottle in storage to a small bottle that's when I make sure to shake really well before the transfer.
 

BaccyFiend

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2014
140
227
New York, NY
I have a question. Is it okay to post loose pipe tobacco in the net pif thread? I am not going to use it before it dries out. It was a very generous gift and I would hate to see it go bad.

I have no pony in the race yet (being a noob who's not even verified), but I would think it would be easier to have a separate thread for that so loose tobacco seekers don't have to parse through liquid posts and vice versa.
 

FearTX

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 15, 2013
2,718
13,117
Outside of Austin, The Republic of Texas
“Smokeless” tobacco products---primarily chewing tobacco, snuff, and snus---are exceptions, of course, but they constitute a minority segment of the commercial tobacco marketplace.

Enter vaping. Except for the small percentage of vapers who use zero nicotine in their eliquids, most of us are essentially using a “smokeless” tobacco product. Is this safe? We don’t know. Most of us feel that vaping is safer than smoking or chewing tobacco, but vaping hasn’t been around long enough to allow the research studies that should eventually demonstrate its long-term effects on our health. In the meantime, I consider vaping to be a form of self-medication, at least for me personally.

I dearly wish I could remember where I read a certain interpretation of "statistics". I also wish I would have dug in deeper into the methodology they used. If anyone is unaware you can do a lot of things with statistics. Depending on the formula and how you apply it, depending on which set of results you exclude as "non relevant", or your personal agenda; you can prove just about any point with math. So take this with a grain of salt.
At any rate maybe this spurs some thinking or jars a memory for someone else.
It may have been linked with the Swedish research on smokeless tobacco I am not sure. BUT.
I read that the ratio of persons who die of typical tobacco related diseases who use smokeless tobacco, casual smoking of pipes and or cigars. Is the exact same ratio that persons who have never used tobacco of any kind. The illnesses that tobacco use contributes to are not only caused by tobacco.

Not sure where they get their metrics when they do these kinds of statistics but it may be something as easy as. Did the person die of esophageal cancer? Yes .Did the person ever state that they had used tobacco of any kind for any length of time? Yes. Esophageal cancer in this case is cause by tobacco add one to the equation.
It does occur "randomly" for whatever reason, even to people who do not use tobacco and are not in households where they are exposed to second hand smoke.

I am not one of those that thinks tobacco is harmless and this is a conspiracy. I do question blanket demonizing of anything. There is scientific evidence that casual exposure to smoking is drastically less harmful than chiefing a pipe all day or smoking 2 packs a day. There is also scientific evidence that smokeless tobaccos are drastically less harmfull.

Whatever the case may be.. None of us know the long term effects of inhaling artifical flavorings. I am ok with inhaling natural tobacco flavoring alongside the artificial ones :)
 

Big Juicy

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 22, 2013
2,919
7,075
Placentia, CA
I received some extracts from Johni yesterday and I got to try two of them.
The first was Sutliff's Voodoo Queen. There is more to Voodoo going on with this tabacco, although it is rather magical.
It is a blend of what is called "Mocha Slices," Latakia, and Perique which was heat extracted.
It is not for the beginner or faint of heart. I, IMO, really enjoyed it. All I can say to Johni is "You Do Voodoo so well."
The second is another Sutliff tobacco called ZBC-245, which is a steamed black Cavendish using that wonderful Green River Burley as a base and is exposed to heat for a full 24 hours. The aroma leans toward the sweet side enough so it is not overpowering. It is definatly a smooth vape for anytime or all day. Johni heat extracted it. I am thoughly enjoying it as I writr this.
I also got the bright idea of mixing the two liquids together. I used approximately 75% ZBC-245 and 25% Voodoo Queen. That initself is a wonderfully satisfing vape! I will comment on the other extracts as soon as I have vaped these until the fire department comes, thinking all the smoke means a fire. :laugh:

Voodoo Queen by johnni is currently my #2 juice on the planet
 

AnthonyB

Ultra Member
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 5, 2010
2,819
7,690
Sydney Australia
After looking at all of the stuff to get started on home extraction, I decided not to right now. I don't think I'm strong enough to avoid smoking up what I might buy. I was looking at samplers on Cigar.com and it took me two days to get over the urge to run to the nearest tobacconist, buy a humidor, and a grip of single cigars.

So, for now I'll keep going through the home brews and retail vendors out there.

Mike, I agree entirely. I have spoken about the complications of buying blissful pipes and cigars for the purposes of extracting tobacco and the inherent complications of it being performed by reformed smokers with someone in private.

It's the white elephant in the room for sure. My understanding is that those who are not complicated by this desire to smoke what's intended for distraction are those fortunate souls that have stayed 'clean' from analogs for a good few years and are no longer tempted.

The other category of vaper that could dive right into tobacco extraction are those who vape and smoke concurrently and are happy to do that. (Realcigguy on YouTube is a good example).

I personally would struggle having coming out of a bad cycle of having started to smoke again, intermittently a few months ago. (This is why WTA is essential in my rotation when I am 'clean').

I am experimenting with some macerations now as the timing is useful for me. I am now preparing for a full cessation on analogs and have a bunch of cigars for the offing. I am doing my macerations now as I am concerned that if I experimented with macerations after I quit all analogs, I put myself in jeopardy of breaking my quit.

Perhaps I am stronger than I think and would be pleasantly surprised by my resolve to not smoke what's intended for macerating, but I can't be sure of that and given my track record, I don't want to court the devil. So now is the perfect time for me to experiment.

I don't think home made macerations are something any recent reformed smoker or one prone to fall of the wagon, should get into without a lot of caution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MFToms59

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 19, 2012
1,547
3,837
Nevada
...
Not sure where they get their metrics when they do these kinds of statistics but it may be something as easy as. Did the person die of esophageal cancer? Yes .Did the person ever state that they had used tobacco of any kind for any length of time? Yes. Esophageal cancer in this case is cause by tobacco add one to the equation.
It does occur "randomly" for whatever reason, even to people who do not use tobacco and are not in households where they are exposed to second hand smoke.

I am not one of those that thinks tobacco is harmless and this is a conspiracy. I do question blanket demonizing of anything. There is scientific evidence that casual exposure to smoking is drastically less harmful than chiefing a pipe all day or smoking 2 packs a day. There is also scientific evidence that smokeless tobaccos are drastically less harmfull.

Whatever the case may be.. None of us know the long term effects of inhaling artifical flavorings. I am ok with inhaling natural tobacco flavoring alongside the artificial ones :)

My Dad passed from Esophageal Cancer, he smoked Camel n-f's a long time, was it the cigs, yeah more than likely. I believe the hundreds of chemicals and actual combustion is more harmful than the Tobacco itself. Before I quit in 2012, they added one to snuff an unsmoked lit cigarette so it wouldn't burn down anything, how could that be good for our lungs.

Even though the percentage of smokers seems to decrease or is plateaued to a particular level, those being diagnosed with cancer is increasing due to many other factors.

That's why it irks me Royally when Big Gov wants to Look out for us :2c:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread