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Need recipes with less than 5% total flavoring?

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by survivalist538, Mar 4, 2018.

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  1. survivalist538

    survivalist538 Full Member

    Jan 31, 2016
    Hello to the viewers, I am in need of some help. I have recently just gotten into DIY and I await on a few batches I've made to steep for at least a month before I try them AGAIN. These batches that I have made are around 10-15 percent flavoring in total, and I've picked these recipes from ELR. When I first tried them after the initial shake, or even after 10 days steep, I get a very strong flavory taste from it which is too intense for me. Many comments suggested that it was a great shake and vape and with steep it was better, but that wasn't the case with me. It made me feel a bit yucky and I felt like I might get a headache from it. I was also struggling with vaping it for longer duration without making a face. I am waiting to see if that changes in a month with the same recipes. I also tried mixing my own recipe using less flavoring and it did a way better job but it doesn't taste like something I would want as an ADV. But I was still able to vape that for 1 week straight without making a face and I did slowly start enjoying it more. This recipe contained only 3% 27 bears and a few drops of koolada. I have found only 2 recipes that are less than 5 percent flavoring in total which I will be making once I get those flavors in. They're mainly tobacco which is totally fine with me. I would like to list the two recipes here as well:

    Simply Tobacco by Savvas:
    7leaves ultimate (FA) @ 2.5%
    Jamaican Special (Jamaican Rum) (FA) @ .5
    =Total 3%

    Macho by Stafylidis Vladimiros
    Dark Vapure (FA) @ 1.5%
    Perique Black (FA) @ 1.5%
    Tobacco DNB (Inawera) @ .5%
    =Total 3.5%

    If you have more recipes like these with less than 5 percent total flavoring please do share. I am a MTL'r and vape on a kayfun prime. I like my ratio of ejuice @ 40pg/60vg with 2.5mg nic.
    You can also help me make a mix with the flavors I have. Here's a list of what I have:

    Eucalyptus mint INW
    Arctic Winter Menthol FA
    Strawberry SC
    Koolada 10% TFA
    Dragonfruit TFA
    DX Bavarian Cream TFA
    Peppermint TFA
    RY4 Double TFA
    Extreme Ice FW
    27 Bears CSL
    Sweet Mango CAP
    Vanilla Swirl TFA
    Ripe Strawberry TFA
    Cheesecake (Graham Crust) TFA
    Strawberry TFA
    Banana Cream LA

    Any help or suggestions with this topic will be helpful and greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for reading.
     
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  2. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    Sounds like you might be right; that the recipes you tried are too potent for your palate/equipment setup/vaping style. (any and all of these can vary a recipe's perceived intensity) You might want to try some small experiments with the recipes you have already made:

    Mix up a small batch of unflavored base; using just PG, VG, and nic to your preferred ratios. Then using that unflavored base to dilute small amounts of your existing recipes.

    0.75mL of "recipe" + 0.25mL of unflavored base = 25% dilution
    0.50mL of "recipe" + 0.50mL of unflavored base = 50% dilution
    0.25mL of "recipe" + 0.75mL of unflavored base = 75% dilution
    (sum total of "recipe" used: 1.50mL)
    (Of course you can double, or triple, these volumes if you want a larger sample size. But 1mL should be enough to get a good idea.)

    This gives you three quick, small, testers in a broad range; without using any additional flavorings. And, you can quickly, and easily decide if it is more an issue of too much flavoring, or if it is a recipe, or even specific ingredient problem, that makes them unpleasant to you. It should still leave you with plenty of your original mixes left over to allow full aging.
     
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  3. survivalist538

    survivalist538 Full Member

    Jan 31, 2016
    I wish I could have used my brain further to figure that out myself.. Lol. Thanks so much for that useful information. This makes sense as it will not change my base yet just the percentage of the flavoring. I might do all 3 practices with every mix of mine. Thanks once again!

    -Zen
     
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  4. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    You're most welcome; I hope it helps. :)
     
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  5. DaveP

    DaveP PV Master & Musician ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 22, 2010
    Central GA
    IDJoel's info was exactly what I was going to suggest. I keep up to 300ml of unflavored around for small batch flavor testing as well as for vaping by itself. Lots of us vape unflavored a good portion of the day. Most of us add flavor to unflavored juice to determine where we best like the mix.

    It's nice to be able to make small test batches without going through the entire recipe on each. Using unflavored is the easy way to experiment. As ID Joel said, you can also use it to dilute those mixes that are overflavored.
     
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  6. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Yes, I would dilute the recipes you have now. I don't flavor a lot either, and some of my mixes have 5--7% flavoring.

    You can do two things: take a recipe that's "made" but just bump the flavorings down quite a bit and see how you like them with less flavoring, or start flavoring with single mixes that you can combine in your tank OR invent your "own" recipes that flavor to your tastes. Since you are starting out, single mixes can be great to figure out how your flavors "change" as they steep, and combining in at tank can give you some sense of how they may interact together, it's how I started out (after tasting a lot of flavors and reading a lot of recipes) and it gave me flavor "building blocks" so I knew how to combine them well, and my recipes have slowly, over time gotten more complex, but I still flavor way less than 15% and use barely any sweetener. It is what my palate likes.

    I do understand the "ease" of following a premade recipe but it's DIY. I take that as "I will make my own recipes" although there is nothing wrong with following a premade recipe (as long as it is to YOUR tastes). It sounds like 15% is too high, so either just lower the percentages drastically, and/or start creating your own, etc.

    Best of luck, IDJoel has given you some great advice. Hope you get things going more in the way that you'd like. :)

    Anna
     
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  7. BrotherBob

    BrotherBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Dec 24, 2014
    Sunnyvale,CA,USA
    Could check out:
    Vaping Underground: "Single Flavors that can stand on their own?"
    I just tried a Flavorah Peanut Butter standalone/single at 1.5% (after 1 month steep) this am and this flavor is good as is.You really have to like PB to appreciate.
    You might want to try the highly concentrated flavors for singles first. May make your quest easier.
    All of my flavors are enhanced with other flavors. I'm having fun try to find a single Choc, Vanilla (this one, i have a few candidates), Cheese Cake flavor to my liking.
     
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  8. dc99

    dc99 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 17, 2014
    earth
    If the tobacco flavors are something your after you may want to check out "Fear" on alltheflavors. He is the tobacco guru.
     
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  9. survivalist538

    survivalist538 Full Member

    Jan 31, 2016
    Thanks I will be making a unflavored batch for testing very soon. I appreciate your comment.
     
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  10. survivalist538

    survivalist538 Full Member

    Jan 31, 2016
    Thank you very much. I will look into making single flavors very soon to test them out separately before getting into a complex mix.
     
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  11. survivalist538

    survivalist538 Full Member

    Jan 31, 2016
    Thank you for your suggestion, I will look into that person's recipes to see what I can make out of it as well.
     
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  12. survivalist538

    survivalist538 Full Member

    Jan 31, 2016
    I really appreciate all the comments! Great community and glad you guys have found what works best for you. Hopefully soon I can be in the same position. Thank you everyone!
     
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  13. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    Looking at your current stash; I have a follow-up question.
    You mentioned you used recipes you chose from ELR. Did you have to, or choose to, sub (or omit) any ingredients?

    Since you mentioned the 27 Bears twice in your original post; I guessed that was one you were particularly interested in trying. I pulled up all public recipes that used that particular ingredient. I was able to identify 37 recipes. Of these 37; only 12 had any rating whatsoever. Of these remaining 12; only 4 had more than one person rating the recipe (I assume those with only 1 rating are being rated by the creator; and no secondary opinions). Of these final 4; 2 recipes had 2 ratings, 1 had 3 ratings, and 1 had 4 ratings. here is a visual of what I am talking about:
    upload_2018-3-4_17-29-40.png
    (click on image for full size image)
    (source: links to ELR are not permitted on ECF. Path used: ELR>Resources tab>Flavor List>input "27 Bears">sort results by Ratings or Recipes, and select result with most entries (in this case: "27 Bears (SilverLine)(CAP)"))

    After looking at all 12 rated recipes; I couldn't find a single one that could be made with the ingredients you listed. At least not without substituting and/or omitting ingredients. This is why I asked.

    A few random thoughts, on substitution, and ELR in general:

    Substituting ingredients is a pretty commonplace occurrence. However, it can help expectations meet outcomes, if you keep the following in mind:
    • You will not get the same result as the original recipe. You may get close. You may get similar. Or, you may get something completely different (which may be good/great/meh/awful).
    • Just because flavors (from different manufacturers) may share the same/similar names; does not mean that they should be used at the same percentages, or yield the same results. When subbing one ingredient for another; it is not uncommon to need to adjust actual percentage used.
    • Even within the same manufacturer; subbing one flavor for a similar ingredient, can provide very different/noticeable results. Example: If one mixes up a single flavor of TFA Strawberry Ripe, and a single flavor (at the same percentage) of TFA Strawberry, and you will get very different tastes.
    • Subbing can be more a more satisfying/positive experience, if you are familiar with both the ingredient being subbed, as well as the ingredient that is doing the sub. Without this, just remember you are guessing, and have lower expectations of the outcome... it helps take the pressure off.;)
    • Whether using someone else's recipe, subbing ingredients in a recipe, or developing a recipe from scratch; it is helpful to remember that multiple trials, and adjustments are the "norm" and not the "exception." Again, this takes the pressure off of having to "get it right" on the first try.:D
    My opinions on ELR:
    • ELR can be a helpful resource; but it is no cure-all. (same for Reddit, VU, and even ECF.:shock: I know; Heresy!) I routinely remind myself that I am reading a collection of individual opinions, and I may, or may not agree with any of them. (Note: this applies doubly for me and my opinions.;))
    • I tend to look at most (all?) recipes as experiments, works-in-progress, even possible "tried-and-failed." Very few (seem to me) completed, finished, "pleasing-to-the-masses" recipes. When I keep that in mind, I tend to be more tolerant, and then throw my own take on it. ELR recipes are more of a "starting point," vs. "the finish line."
    • Truly popular recipes will have substantial feedback (20,50, 100, or more). "More" gives a broader pool to form my own opinions; but there is still no guarantee that I am going to agree with them. Only I can understand my own palate... and my palate changes... a lot!:facepalm::blush:
    • And just because I want a larger pool; doesn't mean I am going to get a larger pool. Sometimes I have to settle for what I can get. But, I also need to lower my expectations, that it is going to prove helpful. My own experiences will always trump popular opinion.
    • I hold the same opinion for concentrate percentage preferences: "bigger pools can provide more useful feedback." "Regardless of pool-size; I have no guarantee of sharing the same/similar preference." It is best, for me, to start at the low end... and work my way up as needed.
    • When possible, choose the most commonly used listing, for an ingredient. There are often multiple listings for one ingredient; caused by misspellings, abbreviations, and variations on a concentrate's name. To aid in this, when searching flavors, I make sure my spelling is correct, omit excessive details (like mfg.), and then sort by Ratings and/or recipes. Then, (usually(?)), The ingredient i am looking for will appear on the first page of results. Here's just one example using TFA-Strawberry Ripe:
    The initial search:
    upload_2018-3-4_19-1-35.png

    The initial results:
    upload_2018-3-4_19-3-39.png

    Notice right of the bat we have 4 indicating they are TFA. Now to sort.
    By "Rating":
    upload_2018-3-4_19-9-35.png

    Now to double-check.
    By "Recipes":
    upload_2018-3-4_19-18-42.png

    Bingo!

    If you are using ELR, to store your recipes, you can find similar info:
    upload_2018-3-4_19-32-22.png

    This is also the same if you are inputting ingredients to create your own personal flavor stash.
     
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  14. Fozzy71

    Fozzy71 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 7, 2016
    8 Mile + 2.5
    Almost every recipe I make with Real Flavors Super Concentrates comes in under 5%.
     
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  15. survivalist538

    survivalist538 Full Member

    Jan 31, 2016
    Wow Buddy.. You sure went to an extent to help me here. I am so sorry for replying late. I've been practicing with my DIY and I've also been extremely busy at work as well. I made so many different mixes for testing that I ended up using all of my 16 ounces of VG and PG. I just ordered more in gallons to continue further into my testing. This is really pure rocket science at first because every body is different. Thank you so much for this information as it will all help me in the long run as well. So far it's really not working on my behalf. I have learned to use ELR much better now and continue on my quest. I will be trying some recipes made by me to see what best suits me. So far I've been practicing different ratios and nicotine amounts, and I can say 3mg in nicotine has been really working great for me. I was incorrect with the pg/vg ratio before though as I thought 60vg/40pg is what my body needs but I was wrong. Extremely wrong. Although I really like the kayfun prime, I did order a kaylin mini and have an old nobu rda sitting at home that I was practicing on. I have decided to do lung hits because it's less irritating on my throat for some reason. I tried all ratios from both directions starting from 90/10 to 10/90 and around 90vg/10pg I felt good but still felt a bit sick inside. I had a bit of weird feeling around my throat during the testing, also felt kind of ill, which is understandable as I was testing so much. Right when I wanted to stop testing further and stay at 90vg/10pg, I decided to go 100vg for 2 days and see how that lasts me. I guess I am one of those guys (after searching up more about PG) that aren't so comfortable with using PG. Now this makes my job 10x harder than it was already :( But when I vaped just VG with 3mg nicotine(vg based) I found my breath normal, my throat normal, my heartbeat normal, my sinus normal, and everything else normal? VG worked wonders for me from past 2 days but only in my mini rda. May I say I tested all of the ratios out using no flavors at first to figure out which ratio best suits me (with or without nicotine) and that's my conclusion to that. Now I've read that max vg or 100% vg will take lots on steeping which I am completely fine with. The reason I might not have been enjoying those flavors might have been related to PG all along because of how my body felt with it. My biggest problem now is the wicking, as many mention wicking is difficult to nail on a tank with 100% VG without diluting it. I tried distilled water at as low as 3% to only taste water substances that I am really find nasty. I am sure putting flavors might decrease the taste of the DW in it but I am not sure if it will fully recover as the taste stays on my tongue as I write. I really hate the taste of water in vaping, it feels extremely fake to me if I can explain any better. I want to stick to 100% VG without distilled water inside of a kaylin mini. I might have to take 2 pulls and wait another 2 minutes before it wicks properly and then I can go for the next 2 pulls, but it will be worth it because I will be vaping all VG which doesn't irritate me at all. Now that's my biggest concern; getting it to wick properly. My second concern is finding VG based flavors which I will be doing a bit of research on because I really want to exclude PG at all cost, because even 10% is capable of bothering me. I was wondering one thing though. If I were to order nicotine in PG base, and putting only 3% since i do 3mg into my mixes with the rest being VG and VG based flavoring, how would that work out? I can also try keeping VG based nicotine, with VG, and putting PG based flavorings which I believe may bother me. I really appreciate your help and if you have any suggestions for me as you seem to be very helpful. You can maybe just tell me about some trusted vendors that sell VG based flavorings and I can take it from there. Thank you once again. This forum is awesome because of people like you. Much appreciation.

    -Zen
     
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  16. survivalist538

    survivalist538 Full Member

    Jan 31, 2016
    I would really appreciate if you can read what I wrote to IDJoel but you do not have to. Long story short, I want to make my mixes as close to 100% VG as possible. Since you use Real Flavors and I have been searching their website just today, can you please explain two things to me. First, I hear that VG based flavorings (if that's what you're using) with 100% VG solution takes longer to steep, how true is this? And second, once again if you're using their VG based flavorings, how thinned out are their VG based flavors, are they thin enough to make VG thinner? Any suggestions or help on this would be appreciated. I am very happy with this forum. Such a great community. Thanks once again!

    -Zen
     
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  17. Letitia

    Letitia Therion/Nano Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    Since you only use 3mg nic the pg will likely not bother you. Won't know until you try. VG flavors need to be used in higher percentages generally. You might try super concentrates that you only use 1- 2% in a mix. Wonder Flavors are good. The wild melons is a good stand alone. Some brands like RF are alcohol based, maybe try a couple of those. There are opinions out there for you.
     
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  18. Fozzy71

    Fozzy71 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 7, 2016
    8 Mile + 2.5
    I tried a couple of their VG based flavors and did not care for them. I had to use them at upwards of 20% to get any flavor. I only use their Super Concentrates now and I let them steep at least 30 days, usually longer though as I always make more than I need to be sure they have plenty of time to steep. Most are fine after a 2 or 3 week steep.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    Nothing to be sorry about; most folks have lives beyond ECF. People reply when they can; and only if they want to.:)
    I had a similar experience when I tried adding DW to my own DIY; though I was looking for something to help with "dry" vapes. To be fair... my trials were few and very short-lived.

    I don't know if some additional blending time/aging might improve results. I wonder, because some VG manufacturers include water in their VG. (As I understand it; USP-grade VG, that is less than 100% VG, is using water in the remaining percentage.) And yet, I have never been consciously aware of its presence while vaping. I have only considered aging in regards to flavor development.
    The Kylin Mini RTA is a fairly new design; it should be able to accommodate 100% VG mixes. I would research wicking technique and/or materials. You can check out the ECF thread that already exists for the Kylin here. Check it for wicking suggestions, and if you don't find your answers already there, add a post and ask.
    Before you buy any further significant inventory of nicotine concentrate I would do the following:
    -- Buy a minimum quantity of nic concentrate in 100% VG (assuming you don't already have/have access to some).
    -- Follow your previous research and mix an test batch of 100% VG unflavored 3mg/mL nic.
    -- Compare that preparation, to a second unflavored mix: mixed to 3%PG/97%VG, 3mg/mL using the same VG nic (this will illiminate the possibility of different nics imparting different effects). (NOTE: you could also conduct this experiment using only PG and VG and using no nic at all; but it will not account for any effect the nicotine itself may contribute.)

    This experiment should quickly let you know if you are sensitive to PG at that low of a percentage.
    -- If the answer is "yes; I don't like even 3% PG"; then that would mean (to me) you would want both your nic and your flavors only in VG.
    -- If the answer is :no; I don't mind small amounts of PG"; then (I think) it wouldn't matter where the PG comes from (flavors or nic)... as long as you stay below whatever PG threshold you set for yourself.

    This is just my opinion; but PG or VG based nic really comes down to convenience. Other than PG having a thinner viscosity, and being easier to draw into a syringe, there is no appreciable difference. IF this is indeed true; then having your nicotine concentrate in a VG base, simply leaves that much more room for PG to exist in your flavor concentrates.
    I have not specifically sought out VG-based concentrates; so I will yield to the expertise of those who have.

    I will say, for general DIY expendable supply needs, I routinely use:
    For nic: Heartland Vapes
    For PG and VG: Bulk Apothecary
    For flavor concentrates:
    -- Bull City Flavors
    -- One Stop DIY Shop
    -- Nicotine River (many like their nic as well)
    -- Wizard Labs
    -- ecigexpress

    I'm glad to help. I am even happier if you can find something useful in all my ramblings! I agree 100% that ECF is a great community!!:D
     
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  20. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    I am PG sensitive but can tolerate small amounts of PG for flavoring, but I do use VG flavors when I can. They do need to steep, some folks find they need more flavoring, yes.

    I did start adding 10% DW to my vape and it improved it (flavoring too which I wasn't expecting) but it also lowered temps in my tank. I got some PEG400 because the DW doesn't do too much for my massive clouds. I have a bunch of it steeping (I tested it first to make sure I wasn't PEG400 sensitive, but I won't be touching those mixes for a while as I steep for about a month. It will be interesting to see results.

    But, you do have some options besides PG, if you want them. You may just wind up happiest with 100% VG, that is always a possibility. I really wanted less visible vapor, which is why I was willing to try some. I got my PEG400 from Amazon, it was USP grade. No idea (yet) what it does to flavoring and etc. If I have to flavor up my juices after steeping, I will, but for now, it's kind of an experiment waiting in the wings... Best of luck.

    Anna
     
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