New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[untar]

If we're already at the media topic - there's a reason we shouldn't post links to such drivel
-google will rate the article higher if there's links to it on other sites
-...... off vapers that click on the link are still clicks/traffic, raising the monetary value of the site

They don't even need to have an agenda, if every time they put up an anti-vape article they get more traffic they would be stupid not to.

 

[zoiDman]

I don't think the media is the problem, it's those who have been feeding them biased studies to get headlines.

No sure I would go All the Way on the 1st Part of this. But I think there is Little Dispute of occurrences of the 2nd.

There is Also the Huge Problem of Singular verses Plural differentiation. Check out the Title of the Article Khanninnarh posted.

Doesn't the word "e-Cigarettes" imply All e-Cigarettes in this context? And is that what was Shown by the Unlinked Study?

 

[mikepetro]

I don't think the media is the problem, it's those who have been feeding them biased studies to get headlines.

I think it is both.

Lets face it, gloom n doom makes for more sensational headlines. The good studies seldom get the same coverage. For example when the American Cancer Society endorsed ecigs as a quitting method it didnt get much press at all, but let some guy set his pants on fire and it hits the National Newsfeed.

American Cancer Society (ACS) this week endorsed e-cigarettes as a smoking cessation aid for smokers

 

[mikepetro]

http://tetribe.net/e-cigarettes-fou...-causing-ingredients-than-regular-cigarettes/
(Link broken to avoid traffic)
This seems pretty misleading too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am sure that study was one more example of a temperature problem with the sampling protocol.

"Especially when the wire (which vaporizes the liquid) gets overheated, higher amounts of those harmful substances seemed to be produced.”

 

[mikepetro]

(Link broken by intent)

This seems pretty misleading too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dr F's response to that particular 2014 study:

E-cigarette aerosol contains 6 times LESS formaldehyde than tobacco cigarette smoke

 

[Katmar]

I really came to this thread super late. Can anyone help me?
I vape on an Aspire Mini pegasus at 13.5 watts. It has a temperature control, but I don't know how to use it. Probably have instructions somewhere. Anyway, I use an Eleaf air tank with 1.5 attys. I only vape PG?VG with a tad of tobacco flavor and 0% nic. What do I need to do to make it safer? I appreciate any help y'all can give me. Had a small lung cancer removed last year and want to stay safe. They told me I could vape, just not inhale a lot.

 

[untar]

For temperature control all you need is a coil with a TC capable wire material
-stainless steel
-ni200
-titanium
-zirconium
-(I feel I'm forgetting one...)

In premade coil heads you'll usually only find stainless steel and ni200, if you make your own coils then you have free choice. Kanthal coils won't work (well at least with 99% of mods they don't but let's keep it simple)!

Next you have to select that material in your mod or set the TCR manually (there's lists of material<->TCR on the net), then set the temperature and the power threshold (that is basically a preheat if the mod operates correctly).
Can be hard to wrap ones head around at the beginning but it really appears more complicated than it is.
Typically your TC drop in coils will have ni200, you set that up one time, find your ideal temperature and then forget about it

 

[mikepetro]

They do make GS Air Nickel Coils 0.15 for the Eleaf air tank
which are Temperature Control coils.

And here is the manual for your Mod:
https://www.vapor4life.com/media/User Manuals/Vape Mods/Aspire/aspire-pegasus-user-manual.pdf

 

[awsum140]

When we talk about media bias in relation to vaping/e-cigs, remember who one of their big advertisers used to be and what conglomerates, that include tobacco products, are big advertisers. I know doom and gloom sells better and the dramatists that pass for credible news reporters revel in it, but they also revel in "good" stories, but only selected ones that support what they are trying to promote.

That Japanese study that was mentioned was debunked so long ago it's disgusting. They were overheating everything, seriously overheating, which made that study worth less than the publication that published it. Now it's being used as a credible "source", give me a break!

 

[ScottP]

http://tetribe.net/e-cigarettes-found-to-have-10-times-more-cancer-causing-ingredients-than-regular-cigarettes/

This seems pretty misleading too.

First and foremost, PLEASE edit your post and break that link. Select it and press the button that looks like a broken link, just to the right of the link button.

Second, they even admit that the problem is more with overheated coils. They could just as well have said "Studies show steak contains high levels of carcinogens...especially when it is burned to charring." The fundamental truth is that burning things does produce bad chemicals, thus why cigarettes are so bad, and vaping (if you aren't overheating the coil and burning the liquid) is better.

Especially when the wire (which vaporizes the liquid) gets overheated, higher amounts of those harmful substances seemed to be produced.”

Finally, if you click over to the "News" page on that site, it reads more like the National Enquirer than any sort of legitimate source.

 

[ScottP]

I think it is both.

Lets face it, gloom n doom makes for more sensational headlines. The good studies seldom get the same coverage. For example when the American Cancer Society endorsed ecigs as a quitting method it didnt get much press at all, but let some guy set his pants on fire and it hits the National Newsfeed.

Let's not forget that for the media to be effective with their brainwashing, there have to be people out there dumb enough to believe that Elvis was really a shape shifting alien that is now pretending to be Donald Trump, if they heard it from Fox, CNN or MSNBC.

 

[Katmar]

For temperature control all you need is a coil with a TC capable wire material
-stainless steel
-ni200
-titanium
-zirconium
-(I feel I'm forgetting one...)

In premade coil heads you'll usually only find stainless steel and ni200, if you make your own coils then you have free choice. Kanthal coils won't work (well at least with 99% of mods they don't but let's keep it simple)!

Next you have to select that material in your mod or set the TCR manually (there's lists of material<->TCR on the net), then set the temperature and the power threshold (that is basically a preheat if the mod operates correctly).
Can be hard to wrap ones head around at the beginning but it really appears more complicated than it is.
Typically your TC drop in coils will have ni200, you set that up one time, find your ideal temperature and then forget about it

That may as well have been written in German ^^^^, but thank you anyway. I didn't understand anything.

They do make GS Air Nickel Coils 0.15 for the Eleaf air tank
which are Temperature Control coils.

And here is the manual for your Mod:
https://www.vapor4life.com/media/User Manuals/Vape Mods/Aspire/aspire-pegasus-user-manual.pdf

Thanks, Mike. For some reason, I do not wish to go to .15ohm. I thought that was dangerous if not used properly? Thank you SO much for the manual. I guess you guys don't know if I'm still safe as is, with what I have.....Pegasus Mini, Eleaf Atty 1.5ohm, no TC???
I know it says "Vaping Master" under my avatar, but that's far from the truth and ECF put it there, not me

 

[mikepetro]

That may as well have been written in German ^^^^, but thank you anyway. I didn't understand anything.


Thanks, Mike. For some reason, I do not wish to go to .15ohm. I thought that was dangerous if not used properly? Thank you SO much for the manual. I guess you guys don't know if I'm still safe as is, with what I have.....Pegasus Mini, Eleaf Atty 1.5ohm, no TC???
I know it says "Vaping Master" under my avatar, but that's far from the truth and ECF put it there, not me

Safer than smoking, HELL YES.
Are you at a good temp, "probably".
The closest thing to your rig I have measured was this:

• Actual temperature inside a Kangertech Nano.
  

Not quite the same as yours, but similar enough I think. At 13w-14w it was fine, only maybe pushing it after a couple of chain vapes.

BTW 0.15 ohms in a NI build is not dangerous if used in TC mode on a TC regulated Mod. 0.1 to 0.5 ohms is a very normal range for TC coils. If you were to mistakenly run it in watts mode you would just pop the coil, although that hit might be a dry hit from hell. Most of the folks talking about subohm being dangerous if you dont know what you are doing are talking about mechanical mods, not regulated mods.

 

[mikepetro]

So I was reading up on PEG, it's decomposition/oxidation properties under heat as well as more theory on the oxidation of PG and VG into aldehydes. It seems that at least with PEG the presence of water actually helps prevent degradation and oxidation. Then I remembered Mike's chart (quoted below) and how I had wondered why there was such a large discrepancy between 100%VG and 90%VG/10%DW at the 500F data point. I think that water may potentially act to help prevent oxidation of all 3 of these molecules.

To that end I propose that Mike repeat this test with an additional liquid composition: 45PG/45VG/10DW. The hypothesis is that we should see a similarly low reading at the 500F mark as we do for the 90/10 composition. If this holds true we may have a way to further limit exposure even at higher temps.

EDIT: If time permits, it might also be interesting to see the other end of the spectrum using 100%PG, and 90PG/10DW just to isolate how water inhibits oxidation of pure PG. If my hypotheses holds true I can see myself using something along the lines of 55PG/35VG/10DW. It might be a bit thin and require some tweaking, but we can cross that bridge once we know if the water really helps or not.

I had some time this week so I set up my test rigs and ran your 45/45/10 juice. Same Mod, Atty, coil geometry, as the first round of testing.

You may be on to something.

I also tried playing with 90/10 PG/DW, it was just too thin for my atty, even with the juice control at minimum the tank continually flooded.

On an interesting side note, I found that when I roasted coffee I had to wait for hours before it didnt interfere with testing as I couldnt get the meter to zero out in ambient air.

 

[mikepetro]

To keep it all in perspective for those who may be new to the thread, here is the exact same data compared to cigarette tobacco. I had to use ug/puff as the unit of measure in order to compare, as ejuice is normally measured in ug/mg of juice (like chart above) but that unit of measure cant be applied to tobacco.

Bottom line, new folks, keep it in perspective, unless you are vaping dry hits, it is still much lower than tobacco. What we are talking about here in this thread is how to minimize it even further.

The 7.4 ug/puff median value for tobacco was obtained from National Institute of Health study shown below.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I happened on VG and DI water a long while back because I developed a sensitivity to PG. Someone in the DIY thread said the viscosity of 1ml of water in VG is the equivalent of 4ml of PG. So, I have a viscosity of 60VG/40PG using 10ml of water to 90ml of VG. Don't know if this is entirely accurate but my eyeball says "Yes" when I shake it and I don't have the reaction to PG.
I didn't know that the mix could also be less risky.

I had some time this week so I set up my test rigs and ran your 45/45/10 juice. Same Mod, Atty, coil geometry, as the first round of testing.

You may be on to something.

I also tried playing with 90/10 PG/DW, it was just too thin for my atty, even with the juice control at minimum the tank continually flooded.

On an interesting side note, I found that when I roasted coffee I had to wait for hours before it didnt interfere with testing as I couldnt get the meter to zero out in ambient air.

View attachment 734395

 

[Rossum]

So you're telling us that even at 500°F, with the worst possible liquid (100%VG), we're at less than 1/4 the level of tobacco....?!?

Oh, and didn't you previously tell us that at around 510°F, it started tasting bad?

I have only one thing to say:

 

[mikepetro]

^^^^^^^
Yes, I could start tasting it around 505f when using unflavored juice and a developed palate. YMMV using flavored juices.

And YES, on a well designed atty the level was 1/4 of tobacco on a ~25mg MTL hit at 500f. Hardcore builds would of course consume more mg of juice per puff, which is why the first mg/g chart is important.

What bothers me is that I still see plenty of CE4s around in blister packs at the gas stations and whatnot.

Nonetheless, there is little doubt that vaping is safer than smoking.

 

[ScottP]

I had some time this week so I set up my test rigs and ran your 45/45/10 juice. Same Mod, Atty, coil geometry, as the first round of testing.

You may be on to something.

I also tried playing with 90/10 PG/DW, it was just too thin for my atty, even with the juice control at minimum the tank continually flooded.

On an interesting side note, I found that when I roasted coffee I had to wait for hours before it didnt interfere with testing as I couldnt get the meter to zero out in ambient air.

View attachment 734395

Awesome! Your test results bore out my hypothesis exactly. Thanks so much for doing this.

View attachment 734397

This really puts it in perspective though. Really good chart.

 

[sofarsogood]

Dr F, the only informed source I trust, says current evidence is the heat not burn technology has about 10% of the hazards of cigarettes and ecigs have about 1%.

I used too scan google search most every day for e-cig stories and comment where possible. These days I look may be once a week. The lies are over the top outrageous and opportunities to comment have almost completely disappeared. News media has only existed for a few hundred years. It reported scandals, rumors and lies in those early years. Nothing has changed. These days my talk radio at work is youtube audio tracks of the most eminent scholars and scientists in many fields giving presentations about the things that might be in the news in a few years. I don't spend much time any more on today's gossip.