New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

From the comments I've seen I doubt few took the time to watch the videos and read the data in your first two posts Mike. I think some read the title and drew a conclusion.

Yes, it is obvious many have not actually read the material and are just responding to post in this thread. Now whether you believe it or not is up to you.

Funny, it seems many debunk it because it was sponsored by Evolv, it wasnt, Evolv only cited it as a reference.

Also funny, some poo-poo it because the term "new study" has to be junk science. But if I said "New Study says that ecigs are 96% safer" they would take it at face value.

Many believe what they "want" to believe, period. Try to be objective about it. Is it certain this study is gospel, hell no! Is it worth taking a few precautions just in case, what can it hurt? Either way it is worth looking at and answering for yourself.

 

[salemgold]

Thank you for sharing this information with us, Mike. Much appreciated.

 

[classwife]

Thank you for sharing this information with us, Mike. Much appreciated.

Yes...it really got my curiosity going in high gear !

 

[Eskie]

If anyone wants an easier way to plod through all this stuff without watching hours of boring YouTube video, try this. Go to 2/21/17 - Welcome : Health and Medicine Division

On the right hand side you'll see this

click the + Presentations button. You'll get this

If you now click on the name(s) you'll pull up a pdf of all their presentation slides/PP stuff. You can read everything right off of that as it's what they're saying anyway minus whatever verbal flourishes they wish to add. But in all presentations, all the data you really care about will be on one of the slides, no need to listen to someone droning on. And it's way faster an easier to look back and see data you might have missed the first time through, again without plowing through all that video.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

How about some ammo for you kanthal/nichrome users to use against noob tc vapers who think they are bang on whatever temp their display shows....oh yeah, I'm going to feed that stray cat!!!

First, I'm not an evolv rep and do not believe I've seen any here. I know most of the peeps on ecf who push evolve products but like myself I believe they just want folks to have the best control over their vape and deepen their understanding of temp control....so here we go.

Screw on a factory tc coil, or build your own for that matter, select your tc wire mode, set your cold/base res at room temp, set your mod for 450°f and you're good to go right? Yeah, not so much.
The tcr of the wire has variance between wire manufacturers and lot numbers. The wire coming out of China seems to have the highest % of variance in tcr. Especially all the 316L that it so commonly used today.
Tcr plays a huge role in a tc mod's ability to calculate coil temp and variances can easily put you out of calibration by 50°f. So maybe you're vaping at 450°f and maybe you're not!
If you are going to go tc you need a mod that has manual tcr adjustments, as many do today, so that you can calibrate the mod to that particular spool of wire.
Testing the tcr value for a particular spool of tc wire is a fairly simple endeavor and assures that the displayed temp is as close to the actual coil temp as possible. Some call this a "420°f dry cotton browning test" and it can only be performed on rbas and mods with adjustable tcr.
I am not an advocate of trusting factory coils for tc vaping because you cannot legitimately test the tcr value of the wire being used.
Is the dry cotton browning test perfect? No, because it requires human interpretation by visually observing the point at which the dry cotton begins to turn brown from coil heat.
Is this the most accurate way to tc vape? I believe it is.
Is tc vaping always safer than non-tc? I believe it has the potential to be the safest but not with factory tc coils and/or mods without manual tcr adjustments.

My apologies to all you hard core tc-only vapers out there but to be fair both sides of the tc story need to be told.

You mean like I already explained is a slightly more tactful manner in more than one on my posts?

It doesn't need to be "precise".. a user will feel the difference in heat of their vape and will adjust accordingly.

From coil to coil, differences in how much wire you have, the ohm, the gauge, the size of the coil, etc. will all impact

The point of TC is to have a stable vape, so that I have a coil that I have to set at 300F, or another that I set at 500F, I have absolutely no questions about it, it's just a setting that I put it to balance my vapour output.. the actual temperature of my vape is going to be pretty much the same coming out of my mouthpiece, simply because I have the ability to judge heat with my mouth, and I'm sure everyone else does too.

EVERYTIME someone ask about how to set their TC, anyone that knows anything about TC, will explain to the person the same thing... set a basic start wattage, a low temp setting, and increase both to the point that you get you "sweet spot". Temp setting for the max heat, and wattage being for how fast it gets there.

No one ever tells anyone that a specific setting is "the" only setting to use. (at least they shouldn't and if they do, they are not someone that has a clue to what they are talking about)

 

[mikepetro]

If anyone wants an easier way to plod through all this stuff without watching hours of boring YouTube video, try this. Go to 2/21/17 - Welcome : Health and Medicine Division

On the right hand side you'll see this
View attachment 639831

click the + Presentations button. You'll get this
View attachment 639833

If you now click on the name(s) you'll pull up a pdf of all their presentation slides/PP stuff. You can read everything right off of that as it's what they're saying anyway minus whatever verbal flourishes they wish to add. But in all presentations, all the data you really care about will be on one of the slides, no need to listen to someone droning on. And it's way faster an easier to look back and see data you might have missed the first time through, again without plowing through all that video.

Cool!

 

[kiba]

I also wish more people would view the videos and take the time to look over the information before posting. This thread has been blowing up my phone. I feel bad for Mike posting this with good intentions to help people and then having to constantly explain the results and everything else to those that didn't bother to read it.

What is interesting is the bias this thread has taken. People who use TC interpret the results to support there bias, while ignoring the real world results of Kurt that shows essentially no problem with third generation tanks.

There's a whole lot of obvious bias in this thread, it's gotten rediculous. For me there was just the simple conclusion that if you are concerned, there is an easy solution available to you.

If that's not for you, then so be it, for those who want to stick thermometers down their atty, or perform an experiment comparing a wattage setup to a TC one, then hey, whatever makes you feel better, I just personally think it's a bit silly.

 

[mikepetro]

EVERYTIME someone ask about how to set their TC, anyone that knows anything about TC, will explain to the person the same thing... set a basic start wattage, a low temp setting, and increase both to the point that you get you "sweet spot". Temp setting for the max heat, and wattage being for how fast it gets there.

There is another school of thought on this, one that I also follow.

Set the wattage to maximum, and forget it.
Set the temp low, and then bump the temp up slowly until you get a desirable vape.

The concept is that the device will only put out whatever wattage is needed to satisfy the temp. For example, I vape at 440F, but I have my wattage set to 75w or 200w or whatever the device max is. When I hit the device it will jump up to 60ish watts until it gets close to the desired temp, then it throttles back down to whatever is needed to maintain temp. The reality is that I vape at an average of 34w.

 

[r055co]

As I stated earlier, we are our own worst enemy.

I think that with the war going on, the public perceptions, the propaganda, we are living the phase of "what if we are wrong?"....

I'll just wait until coherent and proper medical testing confirms anything either way.

Yep, thus why I keep an eye on the UK's National Health site. They seem to be the only source of legitimate information.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Just to add to my last post..

TC just isn't a number you set and go... the tank used, the wicking, the airflow, all will impact the actual temperature of the vapour.. and so will the liquid used, you could refill your tank with a different flavour from last time and suddenly, you have no more warmth and have to increase the TC setting.

For example:
If I rebuild with a brand new coil and even if I did it as close as possible as the last one, same length, same size, same OHM reading, same gauge, I still will NOT assume that I can use the exact same settings I had simply because I might wick it a bit more than last time, my cotton might be a tad different and wick differently, the positioning might be a little different in placement to the airflow. I will "reset" my parameters on my mod and increase them as required.

Setting TC values is about setting parameters, nothing more.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

There is another school of thought on this, one that I also follow.

Set the wattage to maximum, and forget it.
Set the temp low, and then bump the temp up slowly until you get a desirable vape.

The concept is that the device will only put out whatever wattage is needed to satisfy the temp. For example, I vape at 440F, but I have my wattage set to 75w or 200w or whatever the device max is. When I hit the device it will jump up to 60ish watts until it gets close to the desired temp, then it throttles back down to whatever is needed to maintain temp. The reality is that I vape at an average of 34w.

I tried that.. trouble I find was: once in a while you can get liquid build up (mod in pocket, upside down, lying on table, etc.) and a small bubble getting hit hard on trigger can pop like the dickens...

In time the cotton might move around a bit from drying out a bit during chain vaping, and you get crackling and popping... some tanks are more guilty of this sort of thing due to how the wick feed is being done.

So I tend to set mine to have a short climb for the first puffs after not using it for a while... once you're vaping along, the coil is already warm/hot enough that there's no delay anymore.

And I've forgotten more than once that my tank was empty when I put it down, and I was very glad that I use TC, but also that because I had to at a lower watt setting, it didn't heat up and pop at all, something that I see a difference with when I do have higher wattage set (and I've tested this on purpose a few times).

My normal setting is usually around 45W, while my TC value can be just about anything.. I always start at 300F and go up or down accordingly to the warmth of my vapour.

 

[kiba]

The reasons stated above are exactly why I won't use mods which rely on just a TCR setting. Just look at a TFR range for most any wire type and you can see what an inaccurate method that is for measuring electrical resistivity.

On my TFR graphs I also like to have a reference point every 50F within the range I like to vape at for good measure. It can only help it be more accurate.

Example: this is about what my csv looks like for 430SS

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

I also wish more people would view the videos and take the time to look over the information before posting. This thread has been blowing up my phone. I feel bad for Mike posting this with good intentions to help people and then having to constantly explain the results and everything else to those that didn't bother to read it.

There's a whole lot of obvious bias in this thread, it's gotten rediculous. For me there was just the simple conclusion that if you are concerned, there is an easy solution available to you.

If that's not for you, then so be it, for those who want to stick thermometers down their atty, or perform an experiment comparing a wattage setup to a TC one, then hey, whatever makes you feel better, I just personally think it's a bit silly.

I think that Mike did a great job at highlighting the main points of this study, and this thread has evolved from discussing what this study stated, to various views about not the study in itself, but the logic behind it, which I believe everyone has agreed that overheating the liquid to the point of breaking down and creating bad chemical is simple bad (and logical).

It also evolved into a TC discussion that has, to be honest, in my opinion, one of the best threads about TC, it's impact and reasons for it's validity.

 

[mikepetro]

I tried that..

Whatever works for you, there are several ways to skin that cat.

 

[Robino1]

If anyone wants an easier way to plod through all this stuff without watching hours of boring YouTube video, try this. Go to 2/21/17 - Welcome : Health and Medicine Division

On the right hand side you'll see this
View attachment 639831

click the + Presentations button. You'll get this
View attachment 639833

If you now click on the name(s) you'll pull up a pdf of all their presentation slides/PP stuff. You can read everything right off of that as it's what they're saying anyway minus whatever verbal flourishes they wish to add. But in all presentations, all the data you really care about will be on one of the slides, no need to listen to someone droning on. And it's way faster an easier to look back and see data you might have missed the first time through, again without plowing through all that video.

Thank you for this.

Most of the video went right over my head. I get that the first video posted, he is just trying to make vaping at higher temps safer by letting the user monitor the variables. (?)

I applaud that regardless of whatever the FDA is doing, we still have people constantly looking at vaping and trying to make it as safe as possible given all the new ways we push the envelope.

Also kudos to those who question and not just blindly follow.

I do have major objection: the use of the term ENDS. That is an ANTZ name for ecigs. I truly hope that Evolve drops that practice.

 

[mikepetro]

Thank you for this.

Most of the video went right over my head. I get that the first video posted, he is just trying to make vaping at higher temps safer by letting the user monitor the variables. (?)

I applaud that regardless of whatever the FDA is doing, we still have people constantly looking at vaping and trying to make it as safe as possible given all the new ways we push the envelope.

Also kudos to those who question and not just blindly follow.

I do have major objection: the use of the term ENDS. That is an ANTZ name for ecigs. I truly hope that Evolve drops that practice.

ENDS is FDA speak, doubt it will ever go away.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Whatever works for you, there are several ways to skin that cat.

Absolutely.. the tank and mod you use can make a huge difference... just the way someone pulls on it makes a big difference.

Example: I won't get any crackle or pops with mine, then my wife or daughter borrows it and it's like a bowl of rice crispy going on... I do much stronger pulls and breath in deeper than they do, and that makes a huge difference.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I'm thinking that with coil temp it might be hard to define what you are measuring. Center of the wire, outer surface of the wire, temp of the juice at the wire surface, temp of juice 1mm from the wire, influence of hotspots, a small hotspot can give you a nasty vape. I guess the boundary layer between wire and juice is where the action takes place. What does a TC mod measure?

A coil can get red hot pretty fast if it's completely dry. I imagine a coil would struggle to build up heat if it was just submerged in a vat of juice. Vaping is somewhere in between.

The components are so small that direct measurement would presumably be hard.

Right on point em. G'luck.

 

[Flavored]

I vape with a ProVari and Kayfun combo. I don't have TC.

Bottom line: do I need to worry?

Serious question.

I'm sure there are more like me out there wondering...

Heck, I've got a Kayfun lying around somewhere . . . what's your normal build and wattage? If I have the right gauge TC wire, I'll build it up in SS or something and see what the temperature reading is while I fire it.

 

[homeuser6]

has anyone here tried a temp gun ?