New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Stinknugget]

Ok... I'm too dumb for all of this so I will just ask. Is my smok alien with the tfv8 relatively "safe" to vape all day at 70 watts?

 

[cigatron]

Actually you get vapour before the liquid starts to "boil". You provide energy to the the liquid, hence altering it's vapour pressure, thus passing into the gas state below its boiling point. It gets a bit complicated because we're not talking about a closed system, which is why I dislike the study with the steel chamber.

I also find this measurement of coil temperature pretty pointless. Vaping is an open system with constant airflow, you don't reach thermal equilibrium and you don't have constant pressure.
If the objective is to determine the accuracy of TC control, DNA devices are accurate enough. Fill your atomiser with 100% water and even though your limit might be 240C, you'll see that your coil never goes above 100C, while the wick is wet.

Of course, until we know more, the best thing to do, as various people have advised, is to get a good TC device and not vape above 250C if you're vaping 100%VG (this is the extreme case as noone does this).
I would also advise to be a bit conservative. TC control is an estimate of the average temperature of your entire coil (including the legs). It's very probable that you're getting higher temperatures at various spots in your coil (most probably the centre). This is also one reason why I don't vape at max wattage and have no preheat.

Well put and couldn't agree more.

 

[DaveP]

Ok... I'm too dumb for all of this so I will just ask. Is my smok alien with the tfv8 relatively "safe" to vape all day at 70 watts?

The jury is out on anything with detectable warmth in the vape, but it's probably magnitudes safer than smoking cigarettes. Right now, cooler is better.

 

[Eskie]

Exactly. Tobacco use is rampant across the world. Anywhere there's smokers, there's a potential market for vaping devices. As long as devices aren't banned for import there will be vapes in America. OTOH, if vaping succumbs to the FDA it's a given that tobacco sales should die the same death. If they don't then that's proof that tobacco is being kept around for its tax and tobacco settlement value. Vaping is a threat to that cash cow.

I agree it's almost impossible to run out of smokers worldwide. The US has a relatively low percentage of the population smoking in comparison to others. However, the US is not the only country regulating or seeking to regulate vape devices and liquids. The EU has their TPD kicking in, already driving a market for 2 ml tanks (the TPD max). Other countries it's flat out banned (parts of Asia, the Middle East, and Singapore just as examples). The more regulations worldwide, especially with varying requirements, will make it harder for manufacturers to assure compliance without either building specific models for specific countries or using the most restrictive regs as their standard to build to.

While there are also lots more smokers outside the US rather than in, there are still lots of potential buyers. However, as it currently exists, the US is one of, if not the largest market buying this stuff. Anything that negatively impacts sales will decrease innovation and new devices brought to market. Granted, current generation vape gear is way better than what preceded it, but we don't know what innovations we might miss out on if R&D is curtailed by excessive regulation.

We might be able to import stuff, but what kind of stuff will be around if there's market contraction and lower revenues?

 

[Eskie]

Ok... I'm too dumb for all of this so I will just ask. Is my smok alien with the tfv8 relatively "safe" to vape all day at 70 watts?

Short version? Based on the study being kicked around here about temps and thermal breakdown is a "we don't know" because we don't know what temp your use translates into. Based on the "real world" Subtank study, we can't compare as it was a different coil design and only tested up to 25W.

Reality is, right now there is no conclusive evidence that what you're doing is absolutely safe regarding the presence of these breakdown products, but also no evidence that it's unsafe. If you're happy with your vape, there is nothing yet to say you should change, and the data remains positive about harm reduction in general with vaping in comparison to smoking.

 

[Stinknugget]

The jury is out on anything with detectable warmth in the vape, but it's probably magnitudes safer than smoking cigarettes. Right now, cooler is better.

I tried switching to temp control to see what that's like but it keeps giving me a temp control error. I'm sure this issue is for another topic though. Is there anyway to calculate the temp while using wattage? My tfv8 won't even fire at 20 watts.

 

[Eskie]

I tried switching to temp control to see what that's like but it keeps giving me a temp control error. I'm sure this issue is for another topic though. Is there anyway to calculate the temp while using wattage? My tfv8 won't even fire at 20 watts.

Smok coils are not temp control compatible. Unfortunately, there is no simple method to calculate the temperature of your coils on the basis of wattage used.

 

[DaveP]

We might be able to import stuff, but what kind of stuff will be around if there's market contraction and lower revenues?

That's exactly why I'm surfing for vape hardware sales often and grabbing deals where I find them. I have about 25 rebuildable atomizers, most of them Kayfun V2, V3, V4, and V5 with a few Lemo, Melo, Squape, Orchid etc. I've been looking for Kayfun Mini V3 on sale, but the Chinese New Year shutdown has depleted USA stock most everywhere as it always does.

Those who have stockpiles don't really have to worry for a long time whether they can vape. I have a projected 18 years worth of nic at my 3mg/ml consumption rate!

 

[Stinknugget]

Short version? Based on the study being kicked around here about temps and thermal breakdown is a "we don't know" because we don't know what temp your use translates into. Based on the "real world" Subtank study, we can't compare as it was a different coil design and only tested up to 25W.

Reality is, right now there is no conclusive evidence that what you're doing is absolutely safe regarding the presence of these breakdown products, but also no evidence that it's unsafe. If you're happy with your vape, there is nothing yet to say you should change, and the data remains positive about harm reduction in general with vaping in comparison to smoking.

How I see it. I'm only vaping until retirement which for my generation will probably be @ 75 lol. This way my kids are raised and I'll send them on their way. Then I'll go back to dipping and smoking while I start experimenting with all the wonderful street drugs my tax dollars are paying for.

 

[smokinGAVIN]

Maybe the scientists should focus on figuring out the formula to calculate the temperature of coils based on wattage used.

 

[DaveP]

How I see it. I'm only vaping until retirement which for my generation will probably be @ 75 lol. This way my kids are raised and I'll send them on their way. Then I'll go back to dipping and smoking while I start experimenting with all the wonderful street drugs my tax dollars are paying for.

I'll be winding coils and screwing them in place as long as my old fingers can accomplish that.

I retired at 58 1/2 thanks to an early buyout and generous retirement offer from my company. It was a deal I couldn't refuse.

 

[Stinknugget]

I'll be winding coils and screwing them in place as long as my old fingers can accomplish that.

Who am I kidding? I tried a tobacco flavor the other day for the first time in almost a decade and almost puked. lol

 

[Eskie]

Maybe the scientists should focus on figuring out the formula to calculate the temperature of coils based on wattage used.

That's going to very hard, as the temp isn't based on wattage alone. Its build and airflow, as well as the tank's airflow volume and pattern, all interact and contribute to the coil temps achieved.

 

[Zakillah]

Juice composition might play a role as well.

Although I am not the least bit alarmed by this study I decided to check my allday vape for temp just out of curiosity. I build with 304 SS anyway, so I don't need to change anything.
The setup is a FEV, 3mm airhole, restricted lung hit at 30W, 50/50 juice, 0,25 mm wire (thats ~30G) parallel 12 winds, 3,5mm dia. On a long pull (4s), which I normally never do, I hit 220°C (428 F) max.

 

[smokinGAVIN]

That's going to very hard, as the temp isn't based on wattage alone. Its build and airflow, as well as the tank's airflow volume and pattern, all interact and contribute to the coil temps achieved.

I know it's hard with many variables. Maybe start with type of wire, guage of wire, diameter of airholes etc. This is all just wishful thinking though but it would make things simpler for a vaper like me. I have already found my sweet spot and vaping this way for 2 years already.

 

[cigatron]

@soulseek ,couldn't there be some temporary form of heat equilibrium taking place in non-tc devices until the juice supply diminishes if the wattage is set low enough?
Isn't there a continual heat equilibrium taking place in tc mode as the mod throttles power based on juice and air availability?
Not saying there is, just wanted your take on it.

 

[KenD]

[emoji38][emoji38][emoji38][emoji38][emoji38]

When I was a teenager (mid 70's), one of my good friend's family owned a funeral parlor. We used to...

Never mind. Forget I said anything.

Carry on.

I bet that my mind's in far dirtier places than you'd imagined...

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[KenD]

Unless I want to use that ss coil in power mode, correct?

The resistance still doesn't matter much. Use the same wire gauge, wrap count (but space the wraps, easier to get tc working), coil id, and the same wattage you're used to. The coil mass and heat flux will be similar to a kanthal coil of the same gauge, wrap number, and coil id.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[KenD]

So I did a build of SS 316l the same way I build my kanthal coils with the only difference being the ohms. Put it on my Pico and fired it at 420F and it burnt the coil and the juice with just a few seconds hit on the fire button. I saw the coil through the Toptank RBA glow red with the tank full of juice and all. I have NO idea what I'm doing on TC mode I couldn't find a way to change the wattage so it was at 75w which is way to hot, but thought that didn't matter? Anyways, done for today. I need to learn how to use TC mode on my device. This is why I don't use it. I don't like it, and have no idea what I'm doing. Just thought I would do a quick comparison to see if I'm in a safe vaping threshold with my kanthal coils in wattage mod, but my experiment didn't go so well.

With every tc build this is what I do:
- fire up the coil quickly in tc mode so that the cold resistance is read correctly (may not be necessary)
- switch over to vw at a low wattage
- pulse the coil to work out the hot spots and make sure that the coil heats up evenly
- switch back to tc, wick up and prime the coil, fill tank and vape

As long as all the connections are secure this has led to problem free tc vaping for me.

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[KenD]

there should be some pico users here who can advise you but if i remember right there is no wattage adjustment in tc mode. you adjust by the temp settings

Four clicks of the fire button gets you to wattage adjustment.

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