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Nic absorption with snus

Discussion in 'Smokeless tobacco' started by TWISTED VICTOR, Dec 31, 2009.

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  1. TWISTED VICTOR

    TWISTED VICTOR Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Sep 14, 2009
    The edge of Mayhem
    exo just posted this in the "Experiments" section. Found it interesting and thought provoking:



    "Yes, also there's the question of how quickly the nic. on the membranes gets to the blood stream,
    found this snus vs ciggie investigation, which definately raises some other questions as well:
    Nicotine uptake - Swedish Match


    Quote:
    The prolonged elimination <from the body> of nicotine in snus users has been attributed to continued
    absorption of nicotine released from the mucous membrane or to absorption of nicotine that has been swallowed

    i.e. there's a load of nic. held up in the membranes, being released more slowly than for ciggie smoke in lungs.

    Also interesting, maybe more suitable for a snus-forum discussion:


    Quote:
    These results show that snus users do not compensate their nicotine uptake upon switching to a snus with lower nicotine content
    Implying snus users don't self-titrate nic. intake like smokers (or vapers) ?"
     
  2. a2dcovert

    a2dcovert Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 24, 2009
    Louisiana
    Wow TV, that's thought provoking. So some time after you take the portion out the nic is still slowly being released into your system?
     
  3. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    Someone, perhaps you TV, had mentioned how snus was akin to a nicotine IV. That study article reinforces that analogy for sure.

    Not quite clear on the import of this though:
    "These results show that snus users do not compensate their nicotine uptake upon switching to a snus with lower nicotine content."

    What I'm getting from the article is that uptake to the buccal mucosa is faster than the subsequent release to the blood system?
    Is that close?
    If so than by all rights a 4mg portion should be as effective as one with 8 or 12mg?
     
  4. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    Good stuff, a compilation of a lot of known material.

    I find that I don't care whether I have a General Mini Mint or a Claq Qui in place. Both stay in the same amount of time and neither knocks me out or seems to effect me in any way, although the nicotine strength is very different.

    So, yes, I can get by with lower nicotine snus. Same with e-liquid. In a blind test, I could not identify the difference between 18mg and 36mg liquid. So why vape 36mg? I hope to use these considerations to eventually step down my nicotine tolerance.
     
  5. exogenesis

    exogenesis Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 1, 2009
    UK
    Thanks for posting it in the right place TV :),
    didn't really feel qualified to post stuff here,
    only having used less than a dozen Thunder Frosted regular size snus so far.

    I found I certainly have to 'self-regulate' those
    - by taking them out after about a minute, they're soooo strong.

    But I do have a question, seems to me there's a significant 'well being'
    feeling that comes from these particular snus - that I dont get with say
    Ooomph 6mg 'white-dry' ones.

    This can last all day or more from just one portion (that is taken out after 1 minute),
    wondering if it's just the mega nic. dose, or maybe a higher level of the other
    alkaloids.

    Was thinking maybe a nicotine-reduced Thunder, that still has all the other stuff strong
    might be a better animal (for me at least).
     
  6. Stubby

    Stubby Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 22, 2009
    Madison, WI USA
    exo: Oomph is the one snus I have some questions about. I use the 3 mg portions but I don't use it enough to tell if it has the full WTA. It is a purified snus so perhaps the full spectrum of alkaloids are taken out. Don't know.

    I've done the Thunder Frosted minis and there's nothing really special about them over any other standard snus. I think its safe to say that all the other swedish snus has the WTA and the well-being factor. I would suggest trying some standard strength snus or even some minis.
     
  7. Madame Psychosis

    Madame Psychosis Super Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 18, 2009
    East Coast Gypsy
    Thanks for a very interesting link TV! Two thoughts...

    (1) The lack of nicotine compensation is a curious point. The study summaries don't talk about how long they studied the snus users when they switched to lower nicotine. If the nic is released slowly in the mucous membranes, maybe a change in intake will only be observable over time?

    Can any snus users verify this? Do you feel a difference right away if you switch levels, or does it take a week or more to feel withdrawal or some kind of change?

    If so, it would mean the span of time in which the study was conducted would really matter. Giving snus users a lower nic and seeing if they change their use within, say, two to five days might not be a useful experiment as they may start to compensate later.


    (2) Just an odd thought about the slow release of snus' nicotine:
    Slow release of a drug is generally less addicting/dependency forming than fast release. The hit of smoking a drug gives you the immediate reinforced reward circuitry (Pavlov is salivating right now ;)) as opposed to taking a pill, for instance.
     
  8. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    I always have problems putting 2 and 2 together but fwiw...

    I was snusing and using 36mg prior to testing DVaps WTA.

    I stopped using the snus a full 24 hrs prior to starting to use the WTA.
    During the 5 days of testing I believe I'm the only tester that used the WTA exclusively, no augmentation with any other nicotine product.

    Day 1, 24 to 48 hrs with no snus, wasn't bad really but by day 3 I was failing fast. At the end of day 4 I broke down and popped 2 snus portions within an hour or so of each other. After the second snus had been in place for a very short time, all was right with the world.

    No issues for almost 2 days without. Is that relevant to the delayed release consideration?

    Complete relief of all anxiety and cravings within 1 hour of resuming snus fits. Not immediate as a smoke but once resumed, nice steady drip drip drip!
     
  9. TWISTED VICTOR

    TWISTED VICTOR Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Sep 14, 2009
    The edge of Mayhem
    That's the way I understand it to say. Pondering, yes...I use a mini at 8mg and regular at 13mg with the difference being how long 'til I feel a crave coming on. The 13mg goes farther in keeping craves away, but I don't feel any less of a nic hit from the 8mg portion. If this article would be fact, which it does merit consideration, it would aid in the warm, fuzzy I get from snusing :).
    Same with me, TB. The only difference being that with a 13mg portion I normally go a longer period without than I do with a 8mg portion.
    When I first tried the 13mg portions they seemed very strong, but I think part of it may have been my body adapting to a new delivery. After the first day I started using the 13mg throughout the day and had no more problems. As TB says, the stronger ones seem the same as the weaker ones now. Both seem to satisfy equally with no noticeable difference in immediate nic hit. You might give the Thunder Frosted mini's a try. They're half the nic as the regular portion, but I can't tell any difference in psychological effect. I can use them as easily as the stronger portions and maintain my sanity. Let's use that word relatively, though :D.
    I agree MP. I think it might be possible to ween off nicotine using snus if one wanted and didn't need the WTA from it. Having said that, though, I find that the "well being" that I get from the snus appears (maybe) greater than with cigarettes. Even though I don't get the immediately excessive relaxation that I would from a smoke, it seems to set in deeper and last much longer than a smoke. Actually, to the point that there are no highs or lows, just a good enduring rythm. Occasionally, I feel a nic crave coming on and vape 2 or 3 drops in the atty, but the rythm keeps on going. I don't know if it's just me or others experience this, too :).
     
  10. exogenesis

    exogenesis Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 1, 2009
    UK
    TV, your last description sums what I feel from (strong) snus very well,
    except no extra nic. craving here.

    Definately feels like the deeper effect, at peace with the world for a long time
    c.f. ciggies = quick respite & temporary aahh good,
    c.f. hig nic vaping = drown out the other needs with excessive accumulated nic.

    One thing I don't understand about that article:
    'less than half <almost half> the nic from snus is extracted during use'
    and 'only 10-20% reaches the circulation'
    big gap in the nic. present there, where's the rest gone?
     
  11. TWISTED VICTOR

    TWISTED VICTOR Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Sep 14, 2009
    The edge of Mayhem
    I can't even venture a guess...the more I learn, the less I find I know. So much used to make good sense and still does, except now we see alot of this disproved........it was so much easier to just smoke and enjoy, oh the golden years when we were carefree......
     
  12. a2dcovert

    a2dcovert Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 24, 2009
    Louisiana
    After reading this again I think I finally got it. So I won't be able to detect the uptake and know that I need something stronger of something additional? I guess I will have to develop a standard routine to follow daily. If I get a craving I will know I need more? This is more complicated than I thought it would be.
     
  13. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    Not complicated at all.
    Portion under the lip.
    Tastes goes away, get rid of the portion.
    Still got an itch, 'nuther portion.
    That easy!
     
  14. a2dcovert

    a2dcovert Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 24, 2009
    Louisiana
    So an 8mg portion only yields less than 4mg of nicotine absorbed. I'm trying to translate that into cigarette equilivant.
     
  15. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    Ah, well that's too complicated for me a2d...
     
  16. TWISTED VICTOR

    TWISTED VICTOR Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Sep 14, 2009
    The edge of Mayhem
    By-guffies, a powerful 4mg it must be :D. Work it, Baby, work it.
     
  17. a2dcovert

    a2dcovert Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 24, 2009
    Louisiana
    I guess it's too late in the year to think. It is good to know that the snus is fairly equal to cigarettes as far as absorbtion. The really hard one to figure out would be vaping. Now that wouild take some thought. Maybe next year I'll think about it.

    It's your fault TV, you are the one who brought up the whole subject.
     
  18. TWISTED VICTOR

    TWISTED VICTOR Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Sep 14, 2009
    The edge of Mayhem
    Just work it, baby, work it...:D! I don't know anything, I just snus here :D.
     
  19. tomzgreat

    tomzgreat Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    Chino California
    For the extra Nic Hit on top of the snus might I recommend you try Nasal Snuff. I find that Snus keep me on a even keel but that Nasal Snuff is the only source of nicotine that gives me a fast Nic Hit.

    Snus and snuff go together very nicely.
    BTW the first snuff I tried was Poschl Ozona President it's really a good choice for a first snuff
    Since then I've tried more than 14 different varieties and they all have there benefits.
    snuffreviews.com and snuffhouse.org are a great resource
    The two most well known places to buy snuff in U.S for variety are NicotineRush.com and MrSnuff.com. I prefer Nicotine Rush myself.
     
  20. TWISTED VICTOR

    TWISTED VICTOR Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Sep 14, 2009
    The edge of Mayhem
    Ha ha, I'm still workin' on my first can of Bruton Scotch I got 3 or 4 weeks ago. Might as well have hit me in the forehead with a concrete block the first go-round. Been hooked ever since, though.
     
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