Nicotine calculation and Juice mixer

[Mihai]

sorry for the delay

Sadly, there is no economic way to MEASURE the nicotine in-house. The usual way is using gas-solid chromatography. Another cheaper way could be using the methods that are now used for determining the protein content in foods - measuring the nitrogen content. Cheaper but still outside of hobby range

The table I made just try to calculate the nicotine content based on a set of (informed) presumptions.
The main one is that nicotine is very soluble in water and by just soaking the tobacco you can extract everything. You'll need to do a bit more than what you are doing now, but still easy.

The default figures I used in various places (modifiable) are kind of max values, the eventual errors will be most likely to give you less nicotine then you think, not more (I estimate the range to be +5% -20%). The much lower figures you'll get if you don't wash the tobacco enough.

The exact method is described I think in the document, if not I'll explain it later. I started writing it but then I started working on the tables and lost my initial document


For your mixing pleasure I added some tables so that you can see how much inert stuff you have in the mix so that you can find the right compromise between amount of vapour and convenience of using non-PG stuff (like kahlua and HM juice). They will also give you the final nicotine content of the mix.


I am sure not everything will be very clear at the beginning but if you see a use for these tables please ask and I'll try my best.

 

[Kit]

wow cool stuff mate well done to ya

 

[TropicalBob]

Outstanding! I'm going to print these out and digest them. You've earned your stripes, tiger. Thanks.

 

[CaSHMeRe]

Outstanding! I'm going to print these out and digest them. You've earned your stripes, tiger. Thanks.

Earned his stripes to say the least ... i printed this out an hour ago and still go over... the margins stink so its on like 3 different pages ... lol

 

[Mihai]

sorry for the messed up formatting

next revision will look better


Some clarifications about the mix calculators:

- you need to change only the white boxes (and the components name ofc)
- the sum on the row will always be F + H + J = 1000 mg = 1 ml. J column (inert stuff) is calculated automatically so if you see there a negative number you messed something up. The numbers you need to put in column F and H are basically 'how many mg of that stuff is in 1000 mg (1ml) of that component"
- column A-E are very useful - those numbers you paste here, for your successful mixes

- and finally, don't try the example mix


About the extraction process:

- the "water used' cell is not used in any calculations. that's just a reminder to use more water

- as you can see the extent of evaporation is very important, the percentage of nicotine is very small and you dilute the HM juice too much if you don't evaporate enough the water/nic solution.

- another place where you can increase the percentage of nic in the solution is by finding a very high nic tobacco. In all my searches I couldn't see stuff that had more than 35 mg/g. The highest nic content I read is in some cigars (the kind that numb your lips). I love king edwards but I think they are too processed to have a high content. I remember smoking them _almost_ like a cigarette, which can't be possible with a 30+ mg/g cigar.


About the normal nic intake:

The figures on the cigarette packs (like 0.7 mg/g on my Dunhills) are obtained in standard tests - like 10 sec inhalations every 30 sec (US) or 6 sec inhalations every 35 sec (Canada).
This means that even if you smoked lights your intake could have been much higher by puffing deeper and more often. When I run out of cigarettes and I pick my wife's 0.1 mg/g cigarettes I take out the cigarette from my mouth only to use the ashtray, I inhale much deeper and with almost no breaks between them.
My point is that this means the standard 24 mg/ml (2.4mg/g) e-liquid is not too strong, some ppl really get that much from a 1mg/g cigarette.

 

[Mihai]

here is a very good document about water extraction:

Dr. Jack Reid., Investigations Into the Extraction of Nicotine From Tobacco

google it and it should be the first result.


Now I'll try to find (from my father who's a chemical engineer) how safe would be to use h2so4 to get a faster extraction from all that water. 'safer' as in safer to inhale, because personally I don't worry too much about working with it, I managed to drink self made juice made from hcl when I was 10 and I'm still here

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

I bet your chemistry set was excellent when you were a kid...

 

[toekuttr]

Great info Mihai, thanks for taking the time. The Google search you recommended had some good stuff on it too: Investigations Into the Extraction of Nicotine From Tobacco

 

[Spider]

Thanks Mihai, that's very interesting stuff. You won't get me playing with Sulfuric Acid or Hydrochloric Acid anytime soon! Especially not drinking it! Good on you!

 

[TropicalBob]

So we CAN get some decent nicotine from water extraction. Cool. And for those of you buying ultrasonic cleansers to keep your atomizers in top shape, note this:

"The use of ultrasonication for the release of nicotine into the water has been shown to expedite the extraction process -- rupturing "nicotine cells" within the tobacco matrix."

Put some burley tobacco in the ultrasonic tub, cover it with water and turn on the vibrator, baby. Instant nic liquid!

I found it interesting that burley tobacco was preferred and that it was filtered through cheeecloth after the processing. Burleys are Carter Hall and Prince Albert pipe tobaccos. Cheap, too.

Gotta get back to experimenting again. Wonder if a pressure cooker would expedite extraction in water processing? Before long, my place will look like a moonshine operation during Prohibition.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

"The use of ultrasonication for the release of nicotine into the water has been shown to expedite the extraction process -- rupturing "nicotine cells" within the tobacco matrix."

Put some burley tobacco in the ultrasonic tub, cover it with water and turn on the vibrator, baby. Instant nic liquid!

oooooohhh

Don't say I've finally made a good buying decision? I knew there was a reason to get the tray model. Holds 2.5 litres. Yeah!

 

[Spider]

So we CAN get some decent nicotine from water extraction. Cool. And for those of you buying ultrasonic cleansers to keep your atomizers in top shape, note this:

"The use of ultrasonication for the release of nicotine into the water has been shown to expedite the extraction process -- rupturing "nicotine cells" within the tobacco matrix."

Put some burley tobacco in the ultrasonic tub, cover it with water and turn on the vibrator, baby. Instant nic liquid!

I found it interesting that burley tobacco was preferred and that it was filtered through cheeecloth after the processing. Burleys are Carter Hall and Prince Albert pipe tobaccos. Cheap, too.

Gotta get back to experimenting again. Wonder if a pressure cooker would expedite extraction in water processing? Before long, my place will look like a moonshine operation during Prohibition.

Wow! This is pretty advanced stuff! I feel privileged to be privy to such information Where do I buy the ultrasonic cleaner?

 

[toekuttr]

Theres some surprising information here for sure. Burley being the first choice is no surprise to me as its has the highest nic content to start with, particularly Rustica. What is a surprise is that Lorillard experimented with Steam Distillation and came to the conclusion that:

investigations into the dry distillation of tobacco 23 and direct steam distillation of leaf material 24 were not encouraging. The nicotine recovery was very low

. I think someone referred to that in another thread as being a superior way of extraction......... guess not. Don't know about getting nicotine in enough concentration at home to mimic a tobacco cigs levels. But looks like you can get at least close to the expensive "nic juices" out there, with some concerted efforts. That is, without relying on solvents in a home situation, doubt anyone wants to experiment with those, not with their own lungs anyways.

 

[Mihai]

Wow! This is pretty advanced stuff! I feel privileged to be privy to such information Where do I buy the ultrasonic cleaner?

dealextreme, of course
about 50 usd, search for 'ultrasonic'

 

[Spider]

Excellent! Thank you

 

[Mihai]

Don't know about getting nicotine in enough concentration at home to mimic a tobacco cigs levels. But looks like you can get at least close to the expensive "nic juices" out there, with some concerted efforts. That is, without relying on solvents in a home situation, doubt anyone wants to experiment with those, not with their own lungs anyways.

I am sure you can with just water and patience

In that document they tried to find an economic way to extract the nicotine _without_ damaging the tobacco, so that both could be used later.
With just water, without damaging the tobacco, they got up to 88% recovery rate in just 5 washings, even for uncut leaves.
In the first 2 washings they extracted almost 50%. This shows that nicotine is very easy to disolve fast and completely in water.

With our method - which destroys the tobacco - I am absolutely sure all of it is disolved in the first water. A good part of the water will still be absorbed in the tobacco though, so this is why after you prefilter and press well the tobacco to get out as much water as possible from it, you need a second washing, maybe with a bit less water.


Nice finding TB I missed the part with ultrasounds even if I read that doc 10 times. I will include it in the recipe
As soon as I manage to get those damn e-cigs I ordered weeks ago I promise I will order an usonic cleaner and I will try to see if I can feel any difference in the final product.
BTW, I just remembered - if you have two similar solutions - like using same components, one prepared with ultrasound and one without, you can see which one has more nicotine by measuring the PH - the smaller the PH the more nicotine will have (back soon with more info).


I would modify jdrancor's procedure with the following:


2 Cups water (preferable purified)
20g tobacco (as strong as possible)

1. Simmer for 1/2 hour, covered

1'. (place the recipient in the ultrasonic cleaner, if you have one and if it can fit in , for .... dunno yet)

2. Put in cheesecloth and wring out the water very well, USING GLOVES.

3. Put back the tobacco add 1-2 cups fresh water again and simmer for 1/2 hour, covered.

4. wring out again through cheesecolth.

5. now filter the water through coffee filter. (this will take out, in theory, any paticle larger that 80 microns)

5'. (filter through finer filter, if you have one. you may go as low as 20 micron filters for a reasonable gravitational filtering) - this step could be done maybe somewhere at the middle of the concentration step (6) so that you have less water and go faster, without wasting too much nicotine in the filter if you do this after (6)

6. Simmer, no lid, to concentrate. (jdrancor says that after 27 min he got from 1 cup to 1/16 cup - this sounds great, I haven't tried but if it is so then obtaining very concentrated solution is no problem, I was under the impression that it will take ages to evaporate) Aim to evaporate as much water as possible - if you end up with about 10 ml is ideal.

7. now measure the solution with a syringe, or whatever you have, and put the figures in my table to see how well you did. Whoever manages 30 mg/ml gets a gold star from me

DISCLAIMER: I am not assuming any responsibility if you drink the solution or if you don't use gloves. Otherwise, I guarantee nothing bad could happen, even if you get one two drops on your skin. In that event don't try to clean it with your hands, go to the sink and clean with water.

 

[toekuttr]

Thanks again Mihai, this sounds like good news. Do you think then that the current strengths of e-juice are close to what you're referring to creating at home? I think the current offerings are too weak to be effective at total cigarette replacement at this point. It would seem to me that they would need to be made at least 5X stronger than they are now to be close to a real cigarette. Especially when you consider that it takes about 13 mg of nic in a real cig to systemically absorb 1 mg. So the efficiency is around 10% +/- or so, at least thats the way it appears to me. Am I missing something here? You obviously know more than I do about chemistry (practically nothing here) so maybe you could shed some light on this for me.

It also appears that a few others besides just me are not receiving enough nic and need other forms of nic replacement to stop smoking cigarettes (I can't feel anything but dizziness from excessive huffing and puffing). Is there a problem in concentrating nic even more than say 30 mg/ml, but more like 100 mg/ml? That would appear to me be more appropriate, and allow us to inhale less PG than we have to now. Who knows the consequences of that, why not minimize it? Did you read TB's post on Ruyans follow-up study on actual (based on 98% absorption...oOk) systemic levels delivered by e-smoking?

Tropical Bob: I overlooked linking to his second report. Much is the same. But it is the most current: http://www.healthnz.co.nz/2ndSafetyReport_9Apr08.pdf

About the only thing that jumped at me in this report were new figures on nicotine absorption from 16mg (high) Ruyan cartridges. Earlier, nicotine was measured as half as much as a regular cigarette. Note in this new report that it takes FIVE inhalations to equal one cigarette puff. We have to e-smoke five times as long as regular cigarette smoking. Quite a drop-off.

Any idea why they overestimated so much, and can these new figures even be believed? Keep in mind, they didn't measure nic blood levels, but an assertion of 100% absorption. I don't know where they came up with that figure, but Big Pharma estimates inhalation absorption of their products at around 20%. Hard to believe that e-smokes are 5X more efficient than theirs, imo. Unless this absorption rate is correct, I think they really should be made even stronger than 5X present levels. Thanks for all the info too.

*see pgs 9-11 of link

 

[Mihai]

Thanks again Mihai, this sounds like good news. Do you think then that the current strengths of e-juice are close to what you're referring to creating at home? I think the current offerings are too weak to be effective at total cigarette replacement at this point. It would seem to me that they would need to be made at least 5X stronger than they are now to be close to a real cigarette. Especially when you consider that it takes about 13 mg of nic in a real cig to systemically absorb 1 mg. So the efficiency is around 10% +/- or so, at least thats the way it appears to me. Am I missing something here?

The current e-liquids are good enough if: 1. they really have the quoted amounts of nicotine; and 2. if they were sealed properly and kept at low temperatures. Nicotine degrades very fast as bacteria love to eat it.
Here, some tasty pics in a german forum:
Translated version of http://www.e-rauchen-forum.de/showthread.php?tid=734

[edit: pics removed, I haven't asked for permission and you can see them on that link anyway]

you can see bacteria and fungal spores in the e-liq.
The sweeter the liquid the faster it destroys the nicotine.
So, your best bet is to get sealed carts or bottles, keep them in the fridge and finish fast whatever you open. Or make your own juice

The difference between nic in cigarette's tobacco and the amount you inhale is not because your lungs don't get all of it but because nicotine burns easily. So most of it burns, even when you don't drag, and you inhale just a bit of it. From e-liquid you get all of it. I read somewhere they did tests on the exhaled vapors from e-cigarettes and the nicotine is 0. So all of it is absorbed in your mouth and lungs.

You obviously know more than I do about chemistry (practically nothing here) so maybe you could shed some light on this for me.

nah, I'm just a journalist and I like to document very well what I do
I hated chemistry because both my parents are chemists.

It also appears that a few others besides just me are not receiving enough nic and need other forms of nic replacement to stop smoking cigarettes (I can't feel anything but dizziness from excessive huffing and puffing). Is there a problem in concentrating nic even more than say 30 mg/ml, but more like 100 mg/ml? That would appear to me be more appropriate, and allow us to inhale less PG than we have to now. Who knows the consequences of that, why not minimize it? Did you read TB's post on Ruyans follow-up study on actual (based on 98% absorption...oOk) systemic levels delivered by e-smoking?

No, don't do that!
30 mg/ml is enough. At 100mg/ml I wouldn't dare to get the cigarette in my mouth. few drops of it in your mouth and you'll really know what dizzy means
The LD50 for humans is said to be 0.5-1 mg/kg that means if you get at once 35 mg (0.5 mg/kg x 70 kg = 35 mg) you have 50% chances to die. Being a smoker you probably developed a good resistance so your limit might be higher but I wouldn't try to test this...

The problem might be that you don't really have 30 mg/ml in your e-liquid. I am certain TB doesn't. His recipes look very tasty but there is very little nicotine in there. Try to put TB's typical ingredients in my mix calculator and see that yourself.

Any idea why they overestimated so much, and can these new figures even be believed? Keep in mind, they didn't measure nic blood levels, but an assertion of 100% absorption. I don't know where they came up with that figure, but Big Pharma estimates inhalation absorption of their products at around 20%. Hard to believe that e-smokes are 5X more efficient than theirs, imo. Unless this absorption rate is correct, I think they really should be made even stronger than 5X present levels. Thanks for all the info too.
*see pgs 9-11 of link

I will check that document. I think that is the one I read. If that is the one, they base their 100% absorbtion rate on the fact that there is no nicotine coming out of your mouth after inhaling in the lungs. I will try to find more about nicotine absorbtion levels later. Anyway, even if they lie: the absorbtion rate should be similar to that of a normal cigarette. If the liquid is tuned to have the same amount the nicotine as the smoke inhaled from a cigarette then it doesn't really matter since the absorbtion levels are the same.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Hey Toe (I always think of you when I look at the night sky...)

I think they're going on the assumption that we get all the nic because there's no sidestream smoke loss as there is with a burning cigarette, which loses nicotine while it's lying in an ashtray, or waved around or whatever. I don't think this is right - I like to see vapour, like to trickle it out my nose and love to blow smoke rings, all of which can be considered sidestream vapour. I'm sure I'm losing more than 2% just playing with it.

Emp

 

[toekuttr]

Emp:

Hey Toe (I always think of you when I look at the night sky...)

LOL, I think you're the first one who made that connection in years. Actually though, thats my parrots name, since we clip her wings, thats all she can bite!