Nicotine Confusion

[Spider]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I've found the things that I'd read about nicotine levels fairly confusing.

Of the cigarette packets that i've seen lately, they have said that they contain 0.7mg - 0.9mg of nicotine. Is the the amount that your body absorbs from each cigarette you smoke?

I've read in other posts that each puff of an e-cig is roughly equivalent to half the nicotine of an ordinary cigarette.

If my cartridges say 18mg and I'm not burning most of it away, why are the stated levels so different (even when taking into account how many cigarettes worth a cartridge is).

When I show my e-cig to people they ask me about this all the time and say "Isn't that a lot of nicotine?", but all I can say is that it doesn't feel like it is, but I don't know...

I know it all gets a bit confusing with all the other chemicals and factors involved with smoking ordinary cigarettes but I seem to have had opposite experiences to others with regards to overdose.

I smoke my e-cig pretty much the same as I would an ordinary cigarette, it balances out because if I just need a quick fix, I don't have to smoke a whole cigarette's worth, and if I need a bit more I can have it without lighting up another.

What I found confusing was that I've not had any dizzy, faint, or nauseating effects from using my e-cig all the time - but I've had just one ordinary cigarette since I've had my e-cig (about a week). When I smoked the cigarette I felt REALLY dizzy and faint, and it hit me straight away. Is this the other chemicals? Why do I seem to be having the opposite reaction to others?

Please enlighten me... and again... my apologies if I'm just being thick and missing something obvious.

Spider

 

[TropicalBob]

It's a fair question when you are unsure how our nicotine is measured. In the e-cig, the measurement is per ml: 24mg per ml, for the strength I use. If you use 16mg per ml liquid, you are getting half as much nicotine PER PUFF as that same puff of a cigarette. So you are not getting more nicotine with the same number of puffs. Or, to put it another way, you can "smoke" your e-cigarette twice as long for the same result you get from a single cigarette.

Lab tests, by the way, show that you absorb 98% of the nicotine inhaled in the vapor. It's just that the vapor contains very little nicotine in the first place.

Like you, I have never overdosed on e-smoking. And I e-smoke almost non-stop.

 

[jamie]

If you use 16mg per ml liquid, you are getting half as much nicotine PER PUFF as that same puff of a cigarette.

Hey TB, I'm completely lost as to how you (or anyone) came up with that measurement. Is that based on what percent of a ml one drop is and what percent of a drop you supposedly get while taking a puff, or how much liquid is in each cartridge (which cartridge?) or....

Also I understand - could be wrong! - that with American ciggies the general categories for nicotine are:
- ultra light cigs .4mg
- light cigs .5-.7mg
- full flavor .8mg and up

I understand it also depends on which cigs you were smoking, how long and deep the draw on the cig, how long and deep the draw on the ecig, if you covered filter holes on light cigs, etc.

At the moment I'm skeptical of any measurement statement that's supposed to be better than guesswork. 'splain me!

 

[jimldk]

To Spider.....

Hi..just wanna let you know that what you're experiencing is usually seen as additive inclusion effect from cigarettes...as you know(hope you know) that a traditional ciggies have not only nicotine and tar but also other additives included..but most prominent effect was the presence of Carbon Monoxide..it blends and absorbed rather fast by our lungs tissue and occupies a big chunk of our Haemoglobin in our Red Blood Cell(RBC)....when it hits the brain it sort of asphyxiate the brain producing the sudden rush of blood flow and at the same time depress the neural centres producing the High giddy feel...

Compares that to our e-cig smoking which actually delivers also Oxygen to our blood instead of smoke inhalant and metabolites ...rather greener method to deliver the Nicotine but the dosage of nicotine is way way down on the scale as compared to a real cigarette....each puff of e-smoking will only delivers half of the actual stated dosage...1 ml of e-liquid of highest density(24mg) will actually delivers less than half of the original dose due to Oxidation alone not to mention combustion effects...so I hope it can clear up some doubt...I will explain more later once I am free...

 

[TropicalBob]

Jame: No guesswork or math. The figures on nicotine content inhaled per puff come from lab tests done in New Zealand by Dr. Murray Laugesen for Ruyan. Half is accurate.

 

[jamie]

Jame: No guesswork or math. The figures on nicotine content inhaled per puff come from lab tests done in New Zealand by Dr. Murray Laugesen for Ruyan. Half is accurate.

"Half of a cigarette puff" is not a plausible statement unless the ecig automatically adjusts itself based on which cigarettes were formerly smoked by the user, and the way the user smoked those cigarettes.

It could be accurate for some generic average, but not in relation to a specific individual user. Or it could be a maximum.

Also I understand - could be wrong! - that with American ciggies the general categories for nicotine are:
- ultra light cigs .4mg
- light cigs .5-.7mg
- full flavor .8mg and up

I understand it also depends on which cigs you were smoking, how long and deep the draw on the cig, how long and deep the draw on the ecig, if you covered filter holes on light cigs, etc.

 

[TropicalBob]

You win. Count it as you want to. Factor in all the variables for yourself individually. I'll stick to the lab tests, the same as I do the tests by smoking machines in labs here that compare nicotine levels among various brands. So, for me at least: A standard puff of a 16mg e-cartridge has half the nicotine of a standard puff of a regular commercial cigarette. I don't know how else to calculate it. Nor do I want to.

 

[jamie]

You win. Count it as you want to.

Ofps, I'm not trying to WIN! However I understand that this isn't one of your issues. You are settled with your products and instead take a particular interest in the Bickfords and all your brewing. Which is great, then I can hit you up for advice when my own Bickford shipment arrives!

 

[TropicalBob]

You're right about the experiments. My only device using 24mg e-liquid now in the pathetic mini cig ordered long ago from DealExtreme. The other devices are vaporizing combinations of glycerine, tobacco fluid, extract and e-liquid. I have no idea how much nicotine is in the liquid and have said before that e-smoking is not my primary source of nicotine (snus is). So it's not an issue for me, except that it did help me generally understand that I could e-smoke roughly twice as long as regular smoking. As of now, I'm most interested in seeing vapor and tasting a pleasant flavor.

 

[Spider]

Thanks guys! Especially TB and Dr. Loi, you've been very helpful, I understand a lot better now.

Knowing that one puff of an e-cig is approximately half the nicotine content of one puff of an ordinary cigarette, coupled with the explanation, is a totally satisfactory answer for me. I'm not concerned with semantics, and I'm no scientist.

As always you've been very helpful

Spider

 

[jamie]

<SMACK> Ouch! Maybe I'm the only ultra-lights smoker on the board [industry definition: nicotine 50% of full flavor]. Someone has to be familiar with my brand, RJR Semantics Ultra Lights 100s.... ?

 

[Spider]

Haha.. I didn't mean any offence jamie, I just meant that my question was answered. Your contribution was also valuable, there are always variables involved which you are right to point out.

Spider

 

[jamie]

Awww, thanks Spider. In your honor I will ignore any spiders I see in the basement this weekend.

I did find a bit of info, enough for better calculations I think, neither fully complete:

Nicotine Levels per Loong Totem

Nicotine Levels per Ruyan

Nicotine Levels per Rutoo

 

[clavit]

Thanks for the links
Despite all the variables, this is the most exact info i have seen yet. It does give a reasonable ballpark figure.

 

[jdrancor]

Boy oh boy, wouldn't it be great to get some carts with the SAME levels of nic per puff as a cigarette? Looks like it would be approx 32-40mg levels. THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.

Minimum order is 10,000. I would be tempted to start a pool of people to pitch in for carts, but Loongtotem seems to be supplying e-cig, which is the worst available liquid. Atomizer killers of the worst order. If only we could get it elsewhere. I'll try emailing Jane and see if she can get the extra strength here...

 

[toekuttr]

Does anyone know if there have been any tests performed measuring the actual nicotine content of the vapor, other than a mathematical theory of what might be possibly available for atomization?

According to some test results I read performed at the Univ of LA, the vapor contains only trace amounts of nicotine per puff. Of course these were tests on Pharma's products, and their nicotine content, (hopefully the cartridges available to the general public are much higher in nicotine). With Pharma's products, the nicotine available systemically was around only 20% of the cartidge's measured content. But again, maybe these OTC devices are far more efficient than Big Pharma's devices too.

From Clinical Pharmacokinetics, Volume 40, Number 9, 2001 , pp. 661-684(24):

"One inhaler contains 10mg of nicotine (and 1mg of menthol) of which 4mg of nicotine can be extracted and 2mg are systemically available. Shallow or deep ‘puffing’ results in similar nicotine absorption. Nicotine is delivered mainly to the oral cavity, throat and upper respiratory tract with a minor fraction reaching the lungs. This was confirmed with positron emission tomography and by assessment of arterial concentrations. A single inhaler can be used for one 20-minute period of continuous puffing or periodic use of up to 400 puffs per inhaler."

I've just been wondering why with the all the dizziness from excessive huffing and puffing, I can't wait to have a smoke when I'm through e-puffing. Another interesting thing I read, is that nicotine is not soluble in water at room temperature, but couldn't find any references about solubility in PG.


PS: wasnt able to post links, not enough posts.

 

[McSocker]

so in a sense we should puff 30 times in order to get a regular cigarette hit am i not wrong?

 

[TropicalBob]

Does anyone know if there have been any tests performed measuring the actual nicotine content of the vapor, other than a mathematical theory of what might be possibly available for atomization?

That's one of the things Dr. Laugesen in New Zealand is supposed to determine this year. No date set for results, however.

The inhaler info is new to me, and interesting. I pulled out an old inhaler last week, pulled it apart, soaked the cartridge inside with 24mg liquid, and have been using it ever since, in addition to regular e-smoking and snus. If nothing else, it's a great placebo and I used it non-stop in a doctor's office the day before yesterday. THEY recognize it and don't say a word.

I also think that inhaler info might show the superiority of the Ruyan Vegas as a delivery device. All puffing, no inhaling. All mouth absorption, no lung involvement. And certainly that's the healthiest way to suck in stuff that has never been tested long-term.

 

[TropicalBob]

Nicotine is indeed soluble in water. And, just for kicks, here are some facts from the chemical industry site, Nicotine (PIM)

"Nicotine is one of the most toxic of all poisons and has a rapid onset of action. Apart from local caustic actions, the target organs are the peripheral and central nervous systems. Nicotine is also a powerfully addictive drug."

"Nicotine is a liquid alkaloid. It is water soluble and has a pKa of 8.5. It is a bitter-tasting liquid which is strongly alkaline in reaction and forms salts with acids."

"Nicotine is a water and lipid soluble drug which, in the free base form, is readily absorbed via respiratory tissues, skin, and the gastrointestinal tract."

"Nicotine rapidly crosses the placenta and enters the fetus."

"Toxicity
"Adults: The mean lethal dose has been estimated to be 30 to 60 mg.
"Children: The lethal dose is considered to be about 10 mg of nicotine.
"Dog: 9.2 mg."

If you have a syringe, look at the measurements on it. The first notch -- displacing an area half the size of your toothpaste tube cap -- is 1 ml. Our 24mg liquid has 24mg of nicotine per 1 ml. Plunge even lower on the syringe. See if you can find one-third of a ml. That tiny amount would kill the family dog. Less than 0.5ml -- a sip, really -- would fatally poison a child.

There's much more about nicotine in this loooooong data sheet, including its short- and long-term impacts on body organs. An eye-opening read.

 

[toekuttr]

Yep, nicotine is water soluble at boiling temperatures, but I was reading that it separates and solidifies at room temps. I kept looking for solids in the "juice" and didnt see any. I was wondering if the reason I was getting no "fix" from the e-cig was because of this. I was starting to wonder if there was any nicotine at all in the e-juice since I didn't find any floaters.

It looks like the prescription devices use a manipulated form of nicotine though and their products can't easily be compared to the OTC e-products we're using. Looking forward to that research you're referring to.