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Nicotine may promote heart & blood vessel disease?

Discussion in 'Nicotine' started by SubGothius, Feb 26, 2012.

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  1. SubGothius

    SubGothius Full Member

    Jan 6, 2011
    Tucson, AZ USA
    New research proposes a possible role for nicotine in promoting heart and blood vessel disease:
    Invade and conquer: Nicotine's role in promoting heart and blood vessel disease

    Not the sort of news we want to hear, but bear in mind these findings have yet to be confirmed by any further studies. It's good to be mindful of whatever health risks using nicotine may present, so we can make informed, rational decisions as to our continued usage, rate of use, and dosage strength; moreover, whatever the possible risks of nicotine, they are still far better than smoking or chewing actual tobacco.
     
  2. Stubby

    Stubby Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 22, 2009
    Madison, WI USA
    It gives no indication as to how they came to this conclusion, but it certainly has not been done with population studies. All population studies done on smokeless tobacco show little to no increase in heart disease.

    And just so you are informed, chewing tobacco, snus, snuff, and dissolvables are dramatically less harmful then smoking, even though they are actual tobacco. Tobacco is not the problem, it's the smoke that will get you.
     
  3. yvilla

    yvilla Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 18, 2008
    Rochester, NY
  4. YKruss

    YKruss Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 21, 2009
    Springfield, VA
  5. yvilla

    yvilla Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 18, 2008
    Rochester, NY
    LOL, assuming you meant "beat" you, not really. Thanks for linking to my previous post about nicotine and circulatory and vascular health.

    The research and scientific opinion I referred to in that post is pretty well documented, but as the OP here is about supposed "new" research, I think it's important to have a knowledgeable analysis and critique of its worth, especially if as Bill says, the press accounts of the research misrepresent the actual findings. We all know how that works - as with the infamous 2009 FDA press release that wildly skewed and misrepresented the lab findings in the study it conducted on a few Njoy and SE cartridges.
     
  6. SubGothius

    SubGothius Full Member

    Jan 6, 2011
    Tucson, AZ USA
    Much thanks for your reasonable and informative comments and links, just what I was looking for by posting this here. :)
     
  7. PepNYC

    PepNYC Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 16, 2010
    Charlotte, NC
    First off let me just say I am in no way disputing what you're saying here. However, I have to ask. If all the above are "not the problem" why do people get mouth cancer from some of that stuff? There has to be some kind of additives in the chewing tobacco that causes "problems". No?
     
  8. yvilla

    yvilla Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 18, 2008
    Rochester, NY
    Health risks from tobacco use can scientifically and fairly be placed on a continuum. Combusted products are at the end of the continuum with the highest risk of all, as it is the inhalation of smoke, and ALL of its toxic byproducts, that for the most part causes disease and ultimately death. At the lowest end of the risk continuum are nicotine only products, with smokeless tobacco products falling at various spots along the way.

    Oral cancer risks from chewing tobacco are still much lower than from smoking, but to the extent this risk exists it stems from the levels of tobacco specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) present in the products, some of which are carcinogens. It does NOT stem from "additives"; that is a myth. Newer and modern smokeless tobacco products, such as snus and dissolvables, are produced in such a way as to have vastly lowered amounts of TSNAs as compared to either cigarettes or even chewing tobacco. And tobacco free nicotine products, such as either the pharm products like gums and patches, or e-cigarettes, have the lowest amounts of TSNAs of all, thus the lowest risks to health.

    See, http://www.ihra.net/files/2011/07/13/Sweanor_-_Tobacco_Harm_Reduction.pdf, and http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/07/comparison.html
     
  9. Stubby

    Stubby Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 22, 2009
    Madison, WI USA
    It's a common misconception that smokeless tobacco is a major cause of oral cancer. It isn't as the studies show. The three major cause of oral cancer are smoking, alcohol, and HPV. On a continuum of risk modern smokeless tobacco would not likely show up, and products like snus certainly would not.


    Chewing tobacco historically has had very low TSNA levels comparible to snus. Also note that the TSNA levels of US made snuff are a good deal lower today then in the past.

    http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/2011/12/low-nitrosamine-levels-in-altria-and.html

    The difference in risk associated with todays US made snuff and Swedish snus is very small if it exist at all. Nearly all of the studies that have shown a slight elevation in oral cancer risk are outdated by at least several decades. I know of one study that is referred to by the zealots that dates back to the 50's.

    There is no evidence that the slightly higher TSNA levels in modern smokeless tobacco compared to e-cigs and nicotine gum has any meaning in the real world. It is highly unlikely that snus is any more harmful then e-liquid or nicotine gum in any meaningful way. You are assuming that a slightly higher level of TSNA equals an increase in risk, but the numerous studies on Swedish snus has shown that below a certain level TSNA levels appear to not matter. In reality it really doesn't make a difference if the levels are 2 parts per million or 0.2 as levels that low are not shown to cause disease.

    We know the long term effects of low TSNA smokeless tobacco, which are minimal at worst, but we don't know the long term effects of vaping. The flavorings may well be the greatest danger. I am not in any way saying vaping is riskier then smokeless tobacco, but at this point there are still long range unknowns. If 30 years from now we have some definitive answers, it will in all likelihood be splitting hairs, which is a rather tedious and pointless. The science is not backing up your claim that modern western smokeless is more risky then vaping.
     
  10. yvilla

    yvilla Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 18, 2008
    Rochester, NY
    Stubby, I certainly wasn't saying that smokeless tobacco products were "risky". (In referring to the oral cancer risk from chewing tobacco, I said it was "much lower" than from smoking, and I even said "to the extent this risk exists"). I also specifically said that snus and dissolvables had "vastly" lowered levels of TSNAs.

    The only area where we may disagree, minimally I might add, is based on the fact that every discussion of the risk continuum that I have ever seen does place smokeless tobacco products somewhere higher up on the continuum than nicotine products, even if only very slightly.

    Oh, and as far as I am aware, chewing tobacco has indeed been shown to have higher TSNA levels than snus and dissolvables. I don't see that the link you provided says any differently either, on that specific point.
     
  11. Stubby

    Stubby Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 22, 2009
    Madison, WI USA
    For Smokers Only


    Having read the above it should be noted that chew tobacco use is falling and has been for some time, while the use of moist snuff, both the american type and Swedish has been on the rise at a good pace for a number of years. I'm simple pointing out how easily we fall back on our misconceptions of smokeless tobacco, likely caused by decades of bad information.

    And just to update the above information a bit, Swedish snus now has a level of about 2 parts per million for Swedish match products, and even less so for snus made by V2. Most american snuff is now well under 10 with many falling at about 5.

    http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/2011/12/low-nitrosamine-levels-in-altria-and.html
     
  12. PepNYC

    PepNYC Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 16, 2010
    Charlotte, NC
    Thank you for the clarification. I might have even learned something. ;)
     
  13. Turnip

    Turnip Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 24, 2011
    Australia
    I know that Smoking messes up endothelial cells, which is why its so bad for Lungs Heart and other places,
    I dont know though if its Smoking cigarettes or Nicotine alone that does that. or both, I do wish I knew. !
     
  14. DaveP

    DaveP PV Master & Musician ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 22, 2010
    Central GA
    The good part is that we only get about 30% (or less) nicotine from vaping that we got from smoking. Good, bad, or indifferent, it's a better practice and we can always titrate the nicotine level downward as we continue vaping.
     
  15. Screwbag

    Screwbag Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 7, 2012
    Malta
    From what I have read on the subject, I found that there MAY be a VERY SLIGHT increase in risk to those that are already predisposed to such conditions. Out of the dozens of studies read, only a couple hinted at the possibility... Of those, the risks were stated to be somewhere between negligible and slight. Most possibly stemming for the vaso-constrictive properties of nicotine...but they were still unsure...

    So I tend to read them and just say meh...
     
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