Non-smoker thinking of vaping

[Ablonz]

You realize that, this too, is another myth. The toxicity of nicotine is not nearly as great as Big-Pharma would want you to believe. I'm going t receive a 100mg stock solution tomorrow (maybe, if the Gods can get it here on time). If I do get it, I'll vape it straight. I'm sure I'll probably get pretty dizzy. I may even puke (but, I doubt it). Doubling my normal vaping concentration doesn't seem like such a big step to me. And who is "We" in the don't recommend it statement? If you're recommending things, don't you think you should actually know something about what you are 'recommending'?

"We" is a lot of people here in this forum that I have read when I got into DIY. I will go to my local library and look up the information on nicotine and see if there are any medical studies that show nicotine in high concentration being lethal. I am sure there will be as Anything in high dosage can be lethal. Websites even state it in their disclaimers that they do not recommend vaping as is @ 60mg or higher If so, you do it at your OWN RISK. To each is there own I guess. You do what you want to do. I hope your right for your sake. I personally wont do it to find out IF it is really bad for I have higher priorities other than being a lab rat to testing "high concentrations" As far as knowing something about what I am recommending, I do and I know that higher concentration means to "take PRECAUTIONS" not "oops it spilled all over me, I will wipe it up and clean up when I am done". Its seems as whatever anyone has to say about this matter is " You are not me, therefore you are wrong" attitude. It's like what I see in commercials, "here, take this, side effects are adding 10 other side affects other than what you want taken care of." I will take your information, process it and make my own judgment as I see fit. Hopefully the OP will as well. Each persons' body is DIFFERENT and handle things DIFEFERENTLY than others. What if the OP has an allergic reaction to high nicotine concentration and has to go to the hospital? I wouldn't feel good about that recommendation If I were you. Some people take to the gospels as what is said on the internet is the "Truth". All these studies and what not that people link on here can easily be manipulated to read whatever the person wants. 85% of things online are made up but here this is the truth. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

 

[bobwho77]

"We" is a lot of people here in this forum that I have read when I got into DIY. I will go to my local library and look up the information on nicotine and see if there are any medical studies that show nicotine in high concentration being lethal. I am sure there will be as Anything in high dosage can be lethal. Websites even state it in their disclaimers that they do not recommend vaping as is @ 60mg or higher If so, you do it at your OWN RISK. To each is there own I guess. You do what you want to do. I hope your right for your sake. I personally wont do it to find out IF it is really bad for I have higher priorities other than being a lab rat to testing "high concentrations" As far as knowing something about what I am recommending, I do and I know that higher concentration means to "take PRECAUTIONS" not "oops it spilled all over me, I will wipe it up and clean up when I am done". Its seems as whatever anyone has to say about this matter is " You are not me, therefore you are wrong" attitude. It's like what I see in commercials, "here, take this, side effects are adding 10 other side affects other than what you want taken care of." I will take your information, process it and make my own judgment as I see fit. Hopefully the OP will as well. Each persons' body is DIFFERENT and handle things DIFEFERENTLY than others. What if the OP has an allergic reaction to high nicotine concentration and has to go to the hospital? I wouldn't feel good about that recommendation If I were you. Some people take to the gospels as what is said on the internet is the "Truth". All these studies and what not that people link on here can easily be manipulated to read whatever the person wants. 85% of things online are made up but here this is the truth. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

While I don't think that you are responding from ignorance, I DO think you're responding based on emotion, rather than the latest scientific studies. I just read these tonight, and both paint nicotine in an ENTIRELY different light, might I suggest you read them too.

The Great Nicotine Myth

Nicotine, the Wonder Drug? | DiscoverMagazine.com

BTW I'd consider the "Discover" article as coming from a "Neutral" source, (Not having an agenda either way on the subject)

 

[Dixie1954]

Ok interjection - I smoked right along with all the NRTs I tried - gum,patches and pills never even got sick so how much was I getting LOL I have no idea but the Doc was freaked out. I would like to see a study on how many people who cut down their nic actually really cut down because what I see is they change their gear and go through a heck of a lot more liquid - to me that would be interesting Also Vaping is addictive ,not necessarily the nicotine use, I have not saved a penny vaping yet

 

[mosspa]

"We" is a lot of people here in this forum that I have read when I got into DIY. I will go to my local library and look up the information on nicotine and see if there are any medical studies that show nicotine in high concentration being lethal. I am sure there will be as Anything in high dosage can be lethal. Websites even state it in their disclaimers that they do not recommend vaping as is @ 60mg or higher If so, you do it at your OWN RISK. To each is there own I guess. You do what you want to do. I hope your right for your sake. I personally wont do it to find out IF it is really bad for I have higher priorities other than being a lab rat to testing "high concentrations" As far as knowing something about what I am recommending, I do and I know that higher concentration means to "take PRECAUTIONS" not "oops it spilled all over me, I will wipe it up and clean up when I am done". Its seems as whatever anyone has to say about this matter is " You are not me, therefore you are wrong" attitude. It's like what I see in commercials, "here, take this, side effects are adding 10 other side affects other than what you want taken care of." I will take your information, process it and make my own judgment as I see fit. Hopefully the OP will as well. Each persons' body is DIFFERENT and handle things DIFEFERENTLY than others. What if the OP has an allergic reaction to high nicotine concentration and has to go to the hospital? I wouldn't feel good about that recommendation If I were you. Some people take to the gospels as what is said on the internet is the "Truth". All these studies and what not that people link on here can easily be manipulated to read whatever the person wants. 85% of things online are made up but here this is the truth. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

The point isn't 'me'. The point is that everyone involved in this discussion has their own agenda. Mine is advancement of science. Of course, given the various levels of propaganda, people who profit from vaping products are going to adopt a CYA attitude in how they advertize their products to stay under the radar of anyone who would want to take their profits away. Similarly, anti-smoking zealots are going to want to blame the fact that they helplessly developed 'smoking addictions; because of pressures from Big-tobacco. Most insidiously, from the perspective of Big-Pharma, all they want is to come up with the best therapeutic for smoking cessation (which, unfortunately, for them, appears to be vaping). Obviously, over stating the toxicity of nicotine is important in keeping people wary of it. Most textbooks say that the LD50 of nicotine is about 45mg. Note that that is 45mg in the average individual. So, if one assumes that the LD50 of nicotine is 45mg/70KG it would mean that the average sized person would somehow need to be exposed to about 45mg of nicotine in order to fear death 50% of the time. Given the 'new and improved "calculations for how much nicotine is in vape juice", The average person would need to consume 45mg in one vaping session to experience fatality 50% of the time. Vaping 100mg/ml of nicotine (100/mg/gm) should deliver, at most, whatever a fraction of a ml is possible (and nobody can possibly vape at this maximum rate). But say, there were no individual differences, and everybody got all of the nicotine they inhaled into their arterial blood flow, if a person was able to vape 1ml in one inhalation (which is not even reasonable, since most people don't chain-vape more than 1ml/hr). Then for every inhalation, that individual would inhale 100mg of nicotine. That person would probably die. However, since it really takes quite a long time to go through 1ml of vaping juice, this concentration is never going to happen (unless the person is a total idiot) The LD was based on some model of direct arterial administration (which can't really happen in te real world), the real world expectancy of the effect of 1 drag/puff of 100mg vaping juice would be (at most), 10mg of nicotine (assuming that a person could actually inhale at 10 drags/ml) which is less than one quarter of the LD50. So, think about it (especially those of you who have some gradation units on your reservoirs). What do you think the probability of administering a lethal 'drag/puff' would be? Even in this ridiculous scenario, don't you think the user would be aware that something was going seriously wrong. That the actual number s are probably 4-10 times less than this, would suggest that, from a lethality standpoint, I don't know, but the reservoir on my EVOD device is about 1.5ml and it takes me about two days to get through it if I vape a lot. To worry about nicotine fatality seems a bit of a far stretch from a vaper's perspective.

Disclaimer: I'm pretty lit on alcohol as I write this and my erroneous calculations in my prior post were accomplished stone cold sober, But, I'm not mixing weight/volume units here, so I think I have gotten this correct.

 

[Ablonz]

While I don't think that you are responding from ignorance, I DO think you're responding based on emotion, rather than the latest scientific studies. I just read these tonight, and both paint nicotine in an ENTIRELY different light, might I suggest you read them too.

The Great Nicotine Myth

Nicotine, the Wonder Drug? | DiscoverMagazine.com

BTW I'd consider the "Discover" article as coming from a "Neutral" source, (Not having an agenda either way on the subject)

I did respond on emotion because I could not recommend something that "could be" harmful to anyone else. I have read both and still get that yes, "we do ingest nicotine from our diet", I already knew that but yet it still states in the first one that the ingestion, yeah if you swallowed it where as if you spilled it, it would be absorbing through your skin where no amount of vomiting could expel it fast enough because it was not swallowed hence the "Use Caution" recommendation. As far as Nicotine addiction, so since I have been without smoking cigarettes for 103 days, I could take my 24 mg nic solution and say trade it for 0 mg solution and receive the same satisfying results? Maybe mine is a physical dependency on nicotine because I vape more if I lower the dosage of nic using the same mod/tank. My body does not feel any satisfaction. Maybe I like to concentrate a lot on my thoughts. Lord knows I like to think... heheh I think, therefore I am... Anyway, yes they were good reads and informative. Thank you.

 

[Ablonz]

The point isn't 'me'. The point is that everyone involved in this discussion has their own agenda. Mine is advancement of science. Of course, given the various levels of propaganda, people who profit from vaping products are going to adopt a CYA attitude in how they advertize their products to stay under the radar of anyone who would want to take their profits away. Similarly, anti-smoking zealots are going to want to blame the fact that they helplessly developed 'smoking addictions; because of pressures from Big-tobacco. Most insidiously, from the perspective of Big-Pharma, all they want is to come up with the best therapeutic for smoking cessation (which, unfortunately, for them, appears to be vaping). Obviously, over stating the toxicity of nicotine is important in keeping people wary of it. Most textbooks say that the LD50 of nicotine is about 45mg. Note that that is 45mg in the average individual. So, if one assumes that the LD50 of nicotine is 45mg/70KG it would mean that the average sized person would somehow need to be exposed to about 45mg of nicotine in order to fear death 50% of the time. Given the 'new and improved "calculations for how much nicotine is in vape juice", The average person would need to consume 45mg in one vaping session to experience fatality 50% of the time. Vaping 100mg/ml of nicotine (100/mg/gm) should deliver, at most, whatever a fraction of a ml is possible (and nobody can possibly vape at this maximum rate). But say, there were no individual differences, and everybody got all of the nicotine they inhaled into their arterial blood flow, if a person was able to vape 1ml in one inhalation (which is not even reasonable, since most people don't chain-vape more than 1ml/hr). Then for every inhalation, that individual would inhale 100mg of nicotine. That person would probably die. However, since it really takes quite a long time to go through 1ml of vaping juice, this concentration is never going to happen (unless the person is a total idiot) The LD was based on some model of direct arterial administration (which can't really happen in te real world), the real world expectancy of the effect of 1 drag/puff of 100mg vaping juice would be (at most), 10mg of nicotine (assuming that a person could actually inhale at 10 drags/ml) which is less than one quarter of the LD50. So, think about it (especially those of you who have some gradation units on your reservoirs). What do you think the probability of administering a lethal 'drag/puff' would be. Even in this ridiculous scenario, don't you think the user would be aware that something was going seriously wrong. That the actual number s are probably 4-10 times less than this, would suggest that, from a lethality standpoint, I don't know, but the reservoir on my EVOD device is about 1.5ml and it takes me about two days to get through it if I vape a lot. To worry about nicotine fatality seems a bit of a far stretch from a vaper's perspective.

Disclaimer: I'm pretty lit on alcohol as I write this and my erroneous calculations in my prior post were accomplished stone cold sober, But, I'm not mixing weight/volume units here, so I think I have gotten this correct.

Now if that person goes and spills a bottle , lets say of that 100 mg/ml over there chest and in there lap has a HUGE risk of getting that dose is what I am getting at. All I suggest it to mention "USE CAUTION" I guess I should clear mine up for you. "If it is in your tank have fun, when you are "filling" your tank, be careful." Is that better for you? I usually see the 100 mg/ml juice in 125 ml bottle or bigger. I do not know where you get yours from or how big the bottle is.

 

[rolygate]

Prof Mayer has demolished the nicotine toxicity myth, last year. In case anyone's interested it's closer to 1,000mg than the often-quoted old figure of 60mg for an adult.

According to him (he's a toxicologist) there is no evidence that anyone has ever died from the accepted LD50 dose of 60mg. He has presented evidence that 1,500mg ingested nicotine is survivable with no after effects. The whole issue is complicated a bit by the fact that you basically can't die from swallowing nicotine as it's ejected by emesis, so you have to be anaesthetised for that to work.

Apparently no one dies from ingestion of nicotine per se, they die from a drug cocktail that includes nicotine (a large quantity of it) and an anaesthetic or anti-emetic.

 

[Ablonz]

Ok interjection - I smoked right along with all the NRTs I tried - gum,patches and pills never even got sick so how much was I getting LOL I have no idea but the Doc was freaked out. I would like to see a study on how many people who cut down their nic actually really cut down because what I see is they change their gear and go through a heck of a lot more liquid - to me that would be interesting Also Vaping is addictive ,not necessarily the nicotine use, I have not saved a penny vaping yet

As for me and my vaping habits, I do 24 mg/ml @ about 3-4 ml a day versus about 10-15 ml @ 6 mg/ml a day Hardware dependent. 72-92 mg/day on the 24 mg with my MVP 2.0 and Mini Nautilus 1.8 ohm coil tank and about 60-90 mg/day with my Mutation X mod and MutationX v3 atty .3 ohm so you could say according to just me, I could possibly use less nic wise, but far more juice for pg/vg wise.

 

[WattWick]

I have to extent a small apology to mosspa. I've been a bit snarky. And a thanks to rolygate for great info (as always). And Kieferz for making me realize there's more to vaping than quitting cigs.

Mindset slightly changed. Turned out to be an interesting thread in its own peculiar way.

 

[bellacorella]

I was a ex smoker for 5 years. I started out with 0 nic.

 

[tezm]

I was a ex smoker for 5 years. I started out with 0 nic.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future you add a low percentage of nicotine...

And then of course increase it to a higher percentage ...

Until ...

 

[BamaKingsnake]

They do make 0 Nic caffeine stuff too, I wouldn't recommend it for a long time, but after I did some research on it I can safely say if you get it from a reputable company it should be no more dangerous than a couple of cups of coffee, and as with everything use in moderation. Hope that helps.

 

[rolygate]

I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future you add a low percentage of nicotine...

And then of course increase it to a higher percentage ...

Until ...

There wouldn't be much harm in that even if you believe all the fearmongering, since if you start with a background plasma nicotine level of 3ng (i.e. in your blood) from the everyday diet, and you increase that to 5 or 6ng, it's not going to have any significance even the most corrupt of pharma-funded liars can make anything out of.

My advice to anyone who wants to mitigate the effects of minor cognitive impairment at certain times is to take a nicotine pill 1 hour before, along with 1,000mg of vitamin B3*, with a strong cup of tea (this has caffeine, theobromine etc. to help the process).

If that doesn't do it for some reason, increase the amount of B3 and substitute vaping of low-strength unflavoured base for the nicotine pill, and continue with the B3 and tea. Then raise the strength of the nic base that is vaped. Stop at the point where the mind fog clears.

That system is many thousands of times safer than any prescription med solution (such as Adderall), and multiple orders of magnitude safer than any non-prescription drug method. As stated, if you're a surgeon or air traffic controller on the early shift, and others' lives depend on you, then you probably need to address an under-performance issue. As for students, that is a different matter and one I wouldn't like to comment on as I don't fully understand the issues.

It bears repeating, here, that it is clinically impossible to create dependence on nicotine. It can only be achieved by co-administration with tobacco.


* vitamin B3 (nicotinic acid) and nicotine have several effects in common, one being the normalisation of cognitive function in some circumstances. As they are co-located in the same food sources and consumed together, it makes sense to supplement both.

 

[Nick N]

I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future you add a low percentage of nicotine...

And then of course increase it to a higher percentage ...

Until ...

Hmm all the vapers I know tend to lower the nicotine level over time, and some still use the same equipment. Remember when they used to offer 36mg juice? Try finding it locally or on the internet. You would think that since mainstream vaping has been around for 8+ years now people would be begging for the 50+ mg based on your statement?

 

[Robino1]

Ok interjection - I smoked right along with all the NRTs I tried - gum,patches and pills never even got sick so how much was I getting LOL I have no idea but the Doc was freaked out. I would like to see a study on how many people who cut down their nic actually really cut down because what I see is they change their gear and go through a heck of a lot more liquid - to me that would be interesting Also Vaping is addictive ,not necessarily the nicotine use, I have not saved a penny vaping yet

oooh oh oh I can answer that one!

Since I use basically the same gear all the time, it doesn't have any affect on the outcome of my answer. In other words, I am not using a liquid guzzling device compared to one that is middle of the road.
Example: Dripping vs sub ohm vs tank. As we know, sub ohm'ing will go through more liquid.

Sooo I started with 24mg and a not as efficient device. Definitely did not go through that much liquid. Device? or because it was 24mg? That I cannot answer.

Better device: Dropped to 18mg and go through 5 ml per day.
Quickly dropped to 15mg. Same device, go through 5 ml per day.
Dropped to 12mg. Same device, go through 5 ml per day
Dropped to 9mg. New device (from this point on, I only use this device), go through slightly more than 5 ml per day.
Dropped to 8mg. Same device, Same amount
Dropped to 7mg. Same as above
Dropped to 6mg. same as above.

Getting ready to drop to 5mg. I don't see my habit changing.

 

[mosspa]

I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future you add a low percentage of nicotine...

And then of course increase it to a higher percentage ...

Until ...

,,, s/he reaches a therapeutic dose

 

[Cloud Factory]

Just start with 0mg. Just enjoy the flavor!

 

[Robino1]

,,, s/he reaches a therapeutic dose

Exactly. When the body reaches the point that it requires, the search for that magic number ceases. Then, like with me, the body starts to say....hey, I don't require that much anymore. This is starting to irritate me. Lets drop it down a notch.

Some will maintain that strength, that they find works for Them, and never decrease or increase from that point.

 

[mosspa]

Hmm all the vapers I know tend to lower the nicotine level over time, and some still use the same equipment. Remember when they used to offer 36mg juice? Try finding it locally or on the internet. You would think that since mainstream vaping has been around for 8+ years now people would be begging for the 50+ mg based on your statement?

Local shops don't offer high concentrations because, as far as I can tell by visiting local shops here, the people that run them might as well be running yogurt stores. I went to 15 vape shops around Bonita Springs, Naples and Fort Myers. You're right, none of them offered any strengths over 20mg. When I asked where I might be able to find some 45mg I got a lecture from EVERY one of them why that would be very dangerous and probably lethal. Well, at the time, I was vaping from Vuse e-cigs which are 45mg devices, and I certainly wasn't dead. Even when I showed them the RJR spec sheet that said 4.5% nicotine, they told me that meant 4.5mg (every one of them told me this). Beside the fact that local vape shops appear to be populated by simian minded employees, my guess is that it is a CYA thing. You couldn't get me to go into a local vape shop again. I'd rather buy Vuse at some gas station where I don't expect the person selling them to me to know anything about the product.

BTW, there are a lot of on-line places to buy flavored juices up to about 50mg. I bought mine from myfreedomsmokes. All of the MGS line comes in 48mg. Since I don't buy flavored any longer (actually I only ever bought one 30ml bottle), there are many places that will sell you stock nicotine solutions diluted in various PG/VG ratios up to 100mg, and it appears that the roll your own crowd is demanding non-nicotine flavorings, because they are all over the place now.

 

[INKED71]

There is one lower nicotine level that most places make and it's 3mg per ml. unless you request lower nicotine level you can get it custom made or make it yourself you can get it as low as 0.025 but at that level it won't even give you the light headed buzz. My daughter n law never smoked either but she vapes virgin (non) nicotine e liquid and loves it. Everyone vapes at their own level there is no right or wrong.