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Oils and Atomizers

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by Sunshyn, Mar 14, 2009.

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  1. Sunshyn

    Sunshyn Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2009
    CT, USA
    I absolutely love the flavors which often seem to be only available as a oil. I'd *really* like to use some of the oil flavors I have here, but being quite broke at the moment means being very stingy about going through atomizers any quicker than i need to.

    Why exactly is it that oil based liquids are so bad for atomizers? Does someone have any technical knowledge about what it is about oil which tends to kill them? Seems like it could be the part about an oil being insoluble in water and therefore they can't be cleaned well. Anyone know?

    There are additives which allows oil-based and water-based materials to combine. They are called emulsifiers and seem to be commonly used in food preparation as well as a number of other industries. An emulsifier can bind both water and oils. Soap uses an emulsifier so it can remove grease. If the reason the atomizers have such a hard time with oil is because oils gunk it up and can't be cleaned off, something like that may actually work.

    I was never particularly good at chemistry. I've no idea how an emulsified liquid would vape or react with humans. It does seem that my recollection that vitamin E is an emulsifier is correct, and I know that one is edible. Besides, an MD once told me to rub vitamin E capsule contents on scars to make them fade away eventually so it may sooth damaged lungs. Granted, tiny amounts should be all that is needed, so I doubt that would make any difference. There are many different emulsifiers and types thereof, and I guess some react differently than others. I'd probably stick with the food ones and was thinking of testing the idea when I have an atomizer to spare, unless someone sees obvious flaws in it?
     
  2. Sun Vaporer

    Sun Vaporer Moved On ECF Veteran

    Jan 2, 2009
    Florida
    Sunsyn--Just think of Oils as the nasty grease on your grill that you can not get off or in your stove--if it is not water soluable--it will build up fast on the coil and will not come off--simply put it will burn your atomizer out real quick---and IMO no flavor is worth that--Hope that clarifies--Sun
     
  3. Sunshyn

    Sunshyn Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2009
    CT, USA
    So, in other words, adding an emulsifier so that the oil becomes water soluble and we're set?
     
  4. Sun Vaporer

    Sun Vaporer Moved On ECF Veteran

    Jan 2, 2009
    Florida
    No matter what you add to oil--oil is oil and it bad news to work with--go ahead and use it and burn though a couple of atomizers and you will see what we are talking about--if it is oil--don't use it please for your sake--Sun
     
  5. Sunshyn

    Sunshyn Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2009
    CT, USA
    Hm... just figured out that vitamin E may well just make water-based soluble in oil. If so I'd need a different emulsifier to do the reverse and make oil-based soluble in water. Shouldn't be too hard to test before using it in an e-cig at all. Just see if the result washes away easily or not...
    I probably shouldn't be doing research at almost 2am.
     
  6. Sunshyn

    Sunshyn Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2009
    CT, USA
    Sun Vaporer, haven't you used soap and water to break up grease? That soap apparently contains an emulsifier. People who wish to cook using oils in items which normally couldn't mix with it are apparently use an emulsifiers as well.
     
  7. Nicfits

    Nicfits Moved On ECF Veteran

    Mar 9, 2009
    Texas
    It depends on what kind of flavorings you are talking about. Take Lorann candy flavorings for example, they are called oils, but are very much soluable in water. The flavoring oils like these from Lorann are used in homemade e-juice. I Believe Totally Wicked sells Lorann Flavorings for DIYers, along with their unflavored nic juice. check out Lorannoils.com

    Though I haven't tried it, and someone correct me if I am wrong, I have also heard that you can use essential oils from herbs as well. Just make sure it is marked as Food grade, (FG) Check out the other essential oils from Lorann oils

    It is my understanding that with these types of flavorings, the term oil is used instead of extracts. Again I could be wrong, It is just what I have read.
     
  8. booboo

    booboo Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 11, 2009
    San Diego, CA
    I have vaped vitamin E oil. It actually worked pretty good for a while and made my lips feel really soft. Don't think my lungs thought much of it, and though my atomizer lasted quite a while (longer than I thought), it tasted kinda like burnt vegetable oil or something and eventually was too gummed up to use. Granted, I didn't boil it or really try to clean it, just ran a couple new carts through til it wouldn't put out any more. It did make my lungs feel heavy, even though I imagined it doing a bunch of healing in there. As for emulsifier, I think both vg and pg count as that, don't they?
     
  9. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    My take on it is that I basically agree with the points you made. Atomisers die eventually because of the repeated heating and cooling. (The lifetime varies because of the resence of not of slight imperfections in the heating wire that cause a particular part of the wire to overheat.) So go ahead and add a little bit into the mix.

    Too much oil left in the atomiser will not cause it to fail, but it might cause it to lose effectiveness if it does build up, in which case wash out with detergent (emulsifier) and rinse well then dry well.

    Have a spare on hand. The worst that could happen is you lose 10 dollars.
     
  10. Sunshyn

    Sunshyn Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2009
    CT, USA
    Kinabaloo, have you used detergent to wash out your atomizer? Did it leave a bad taste behind?
     
  11. Sunshyn

    Sunshyn Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2009
    CT, USA
    Nicfits, I've got LorAnn Sassafras and Clove. Both are insoluble in water. The LorAnn site shows this - click on Item Details on each flavor page for that info.
     
  12. surbitonPete

    surbitonPete Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2009
    North Yorkshire UK
    If you try soaking a little piece of cart material in juice and set fire to it, you will be surprised by just how much oil is left behind when it finally burns out....so the juice does seem to contain a fair bit of non flammable oil that doesn't vaporize anyway.
     
  13. Sun Vaporer

    Sun Vaporer Moved On ECF Veteran

    Jan 2, 2009
    Florida
    Sunshyn--I do not know how long you have been using e-cigs--but you are adovocating to many new people to do something they should not. The coil in the atomizer is not something that can be "cleaned".

    We have been working very hard at trying to solve the atomizer demise issues and to advocate the use of oils is simply not responsible without proper warnings that the oil will in fact build up on the coil and thereby render the atomizer useless as a buildup on the coil will not allow the coil to disipate heat any longer. Simply washing the atomizer will not remove this build up nor is the use of any harsh chemicals safe. We have been experimenting with Colas and heat and our work continues with regards to preventing atomizer demise.

    To advocate the use of oils is counterproductive and it should be stated that there is a very real risk of atomizer demise if you are going to employ the use of Oils--So people that are not aware--beware of this reckless practice---Sun
     
  14. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    Just a few words: Whatever builds up on your atomizer also builds up on your lungs. Lungs can't yet be "washed." Be more concerned with what you coat them with than a disposable atomizer. Do not vaporize oils.
     
  15. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    UK
    If anyone does try inhaling oils please could you report any adverse reactions and side effects? Thanks.

    This has been discussed before and some people seem determined to try oils/essential oils but nobody has given any feedback about it.

    I wouldn't do it but if anyone does use themselves to experiment we might as well have the benefit of their experience.
     
  16. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    You bet. We all want to see the autopsy results.
     
  17. Idahojo

    Idahojo Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2009
    Bonners Ferry, ID
    Can you use extracts in your eliquid recipes. I love Peppermint and have a bottle of Peppermint Extract. The ingredients listed are 89% alcohol, oil of peppermint, and water. I know it says oil in there but figure it can't be much with all the alcohol.
     
  18. Sun Vaporer

    Sun Vaporer Moved On ECF Veteran

    Jan 2, 2009
    Florida
    Idaho--your ingredient list says "oil of peppermint" --so that means oil--Do you really want to play with the oil after reading all of our posts telling you to the contrary and that we would not do it??--Hope that helps--Sun
     
  19. scrubadub

    scrubadub Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2008
    London, UK

    I've been using Totally Wicked tobacco flavours for 4 months or so now and they list tobacco essential oil as a main ingredient. I've also used Janty liquids regularly and they list tobacco absolute which, as far as I know, is also an oil. I presume they are referring to the same thing.

    No problems for me so far. If any thing my breathing has improved. I no longer hear my chest rattle when I go off to sleep at night. From what I gather many people on this forum are using this kind of flavour and I don't recall seeing any adverse affects being attributed to the essential oil. Is there something special about tobacco essence that separates it from other essential oils?
     
  20. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    UK
    I doubt it Scrub. My guess is that commercial eliquid uses trace amounts in tobacco flavours. Some food flavours are also extracted as oils but are then put into a base of propylene glycol, alcohol or water. The poison could well be in the dose?
     
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