Opinion on Harvard study

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Alien Traveler

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I am in no way an expert in the field, I just have some experience in reading scientific papers…

Article itself is here: http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-content/uploads/advpub/2015/12/ehp.1510185.acco.pdf


Short version:


Again, I am not an expert in methods of measurements which were used, so let’s for now accept results.

Bad news:

One of the cigalikes tested in the study provided 528 um (microgram) of diacetyl (D). For one real cigarette high amount of D is equal to 433 [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137810/]

One cigalike contains about 1 ml of juice (correct me if I am wrong). So, 1 ml of that juice is equal to 1 cigarette in terms of amount of diacetyl. It means that if a vaper is vaping 20 ml of this juice a day[*], vaper gets as much D as from 1 pack of cigarettes with high amount of D. So, yes, vaping with specially selected juices can provide as much diacetyl as smoking.
* I mean not 20 cigalikes a day, but 20 ml of juice with the same flavorings but lower nic.

Good news:

Just two juices were really bad, close to cigarettes (both of the same company). Couple of other juices were somewhat bad, and about 34 (of 51 tested) juices were at least 100 times better than the worst one.


Authors attitude:

Authors stretched their method a lot to get barely detectable amounts of D. Their agenda was very visible: to show as much bad things about vaping as possible. But anyway we should be thankful for results they gave us – we should know what we vape. Not a lot of measurements (with whatever agenda) were made to date.


Some details.


It looks like authors have not much knowledge of e-cigs. They made measurements on cigalikes never explicitly stating it.


Method of obtaining vapor: they imitated 8 seconds draws whith 15-30 seconds resting time between draws. Looks OK, but they continued test to the full exhaustion of cartruges, determined by the lack of visible emissions in the chamber. So dry hit for the last draw (at least for one draw). Good they did not measure formaldehyde…


Measurements, especially of lower quantities, are quite questionable. Authors were too eager to measure things they cannot reliably measure. Some juices were measured multiple times and results were disastrous in low D concentration range. For example 4 measurements of the same cigalikes gave results 27.0, 1.6, 0, 0. Authors try to explain these variations by non-consistent manufacturing process, but much more probable their method is not suited for low concentration measurements.


Disclaimer: I have no personal interest in knowing of levels of diacetyl in flavorings. I DIY and use just 0.5-2% of flavorings (instead of usual 20%). I consider myself safe with diacetyl. Anyway, diacetyl is potential risk factor (not really well established) and everybody should decide for himself what is acceptable and what is not. To decide we should know how much (if any) of diacetyl is in juice/flavor.
 
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Alien Traveler

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I'm also going out on a limb here to say no one uses 20 cigalikes a day to vape 20ml of e liquid. Wouldn't that cost $200 a day?
You can vape 20 ml of juice with the same flavorings (but lower nic) in a day with subohm tanks easily.
Thanks for noticing. I edited my original post.
 
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skoony

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Bad news:

One of the cigalikes tested in the study provided 528 um (microgram) of diacetyl (D). For one real cigarette high amount of D is equal to 433 [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137810/]

One cigalike contains about 1 ml of juice (correct me if I am wrong). So, 1 ml of that juice is equal to 1 cigarette in terms of amount of diacetyl. It means that if a vaper is vaping 20 ml of this juice a day[*], vaper gets as much D as from 1 pack of cigarettes with high amount of D. So, yes, vaping with specially selected juices can provide as much diacetyl as smoking.
* I mean not 20 cigalikes a day, but 20 ml of juice with the same flavorings but lower nic.
Thanks for the info.
What I don't understand is Dr. F stated these results were lower than what he had found in his tests.
His tests indicated e-juice had 100 x less and 10 x less of acetyl and diacetyl, I forget in which order.
The results of one of the rebuttals of this study indicated the study proved one would have to vape
for a million and a half years to get the same exposure of diketones a worker would have gotten over
a ten year exposure at work.
The reporting of the numbers is all over the place. Interpreting the base measurements is
difficult when different bases are used from study to study.
Its got me confused.
Regards
Mike
 
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Alien Traveler

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Thanks for the info.
What I don't understand is Dr. F stated these results were lower than what he had found in his tests.
His tests indicated e-juice had 100 x less and 10 x less of acetyl and diacetyl, I forget in which order.
The results of one of the rebuttals of this study indicated the study proved one would have to vape
for a million and a half years to get the same exposure of diketones a worker would have gotten over
a ten year exposure at work.
The reporting of the numbers is all over the place. Interpreting the base measurements is
difficult when different bases are used from study to study.
Its got me confused.
Regards
Mike
I cannot find a paper in which Dr. F stated it. I only found a slide (presentation) with no cited literature (so I cannot compare numbers). However, he was comparing median value, and I took the worst juice in a pack. May be it gives the difference. Yes, most juices look safe, but it is possible to make rather interesting for ANTZ juice.
 

roxynoodle

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You can vape 20 ml of juice with the same flavorings (but lower nic) in a day with subohm tanks easily.
Thanks for noticing. I edited my original post.

I agree with that :). Just thought 20 cigalikes per day was very unlikely. And the Harvard study was measuring diacetyl in cigalikes.
 

edyle

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I agree with that :). Just thought 20 cigalikes per day was very unlikely. And the Harvard study was measuring diacetyl in cigalikes.

Yes I thought so too; one cigalike for a day or two, or for some people or special occasions maybe as much as 2 or 4 cigalikes in 1 day.
 

dhood

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I think the biggest thing that stands out to me is that 8-second draw. Now I don't know about you, but I don't do 8-second draws. Even when I'm doing direct lung hits on my sub-ohm tanks the best I get is around 4 seconds. My normal is 2.5 to 3 on my Kayfuns. If your wick can't keep up with firing for a full 8 seconds, bad things are going to happen to it.
 

papergoblin

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@Alien Traveler, basically it shows that for one chemical vaping is equal to smoking, correct? (on higher side) That still leaves how many chemicals vaping doesn't contain that smoking does, so they to me still haven't proved that vaping is as dangerous as smoking. All it proves to me, is there may be a risk just like with smoking, as we as vapers already know. Too bad you used logic when posting, as anyone that is anti vaping won't, lol.
 

Alien Traveler

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@Alien Traveler, basically it shows that for one chemical vaping is equal to smoking, correct? (on higher side) That still leaves how many chemicals vaping doesn't contain that smoking does, so they to me still haven't proved that vaping is as dangerous as smoking. All it proves to me, is there may be a risk just like with smoking, as we as vapers already know. Too bad you used logic when posting, as anyone that is anti vaping won't, lol.
No. It does not show that "one chemical" (are we already prohibited to name it?) is equal for vaping and smoking. I just shows that it is possible to reach this "equality" if use wrong juice. Most juices are much better.
And you do not have to convince me that vaping is much better than smoking, I already do know it.
But thanks anyway.
 

rico942

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Method of obtaining vapor: they imitated 8 seconds draws

Does anyone really do 8 second draws ? I'm not even sure I could inhale air for that long ...

I really don't know, just a tootle puffer myself, a 3 or 4 second pull would make me dizzy ...

Isn't this like overpowering a PV until it burns, and then raising an alarm about the toxins produced, when nobody actually does this in the real world ?

If a basic parameter of a test is invalid, the results are meaningless ...

Eight seconds seems like a long time, just ask any rodeo bull rider ... :D
 
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ReigntheGamer

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Does anyone really do 8 second draws ? I'm not even sure I could inhale air for that long ...

I really don't know, just a tootle puffer myself, a 3 or 4 second pull would make me dizzy ...

Isn't this like overpowering a PV until it burns, and then raising an alarm about the toxins produced, when nobody actually does this in the real world ?

If a basic parameter of a test is invalid, the results are meaningless ...

Eight seconds seems like a long time, just ask any rodeo bull rider ... :D

8 seconds seems really long to me too, I took a few draws just now and I'm averaging about 3-4 seconds.
 
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