"Organic" Juices, Safety, and the Truth

[awj03130]

I posted this in a local FB group I'm in. If anyone can point out an inaccuracy, please let me know.


There's some industry-wide confusion on what exactly "organic" is...

All it effectively means by statutory definition is they don't use pesticides or fertilizers that are not from nature. They must be certified organic by USDA.

I want to point out that cow poo, uranium, and cyanide are all naturally occurring. I would not choose to vape any of those three. By the way, what is the difference between a 55 gallon drum of PG and a 55 gallon drum of "organic" PG? I can't remember being able to find seeds for a propylene glycol plant at my local nursery.

In fact, PG is produced from propene, a naturally occurring byproduct of vegetation fermentation. This is then turned into propylene oxide through a process called hydrochlorination and then the chlorine is removed with the use of another toxic substance, lime. From here, PG is produced by running propylene oxide through an artificially created ion exchange resin or by using a strong acid.

In truth, PG ALONE is quite far from nature. If we accept this fact and change our goals and visions to accepting this artificiality and using our best scientific processes to produce quality (AKA pure) ingredients, then at least we will KNOW what we're vaping.

Clearly, its a big pet peeve of mine that juice vendors have used the public's idea of what "organic" actually means to vaguely imply that the juice is somehow safer. As an internship when I was in school, I worked on an FDA project at National Institute of Health on E. coli O157:H7... The one that killed people eating spinach a few years ago... It was from only a select few farms and one was organic - certified by USDA.

As a former pipe smoker, I have smoked many fine organic pipe tobaccos. NONE of them were safe.

While I think that food grade juice preparation is probably ok, this is the big reason I see for regulating juice manufacturers and for going the pharmaceutical-grade laboratory route. We can't eliminate all risk, but we can, at least, require that juice makers know EXACTLY what is going into a juice. Thank God that Cuttwood at leased KNEW and 'fessed up to using titanium dioxide.

OK... Rant over Thank you for entertaining

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[Topacka]

I mean, I don't think they're claiming that pg or vg is a naturally occurring substance.

Organic by definition is just an arbitrary set of rules that a farm has to follow when growing plants or raising animals for human consumption so that it is less toxic to the planet and to you.

Organic pg and vg must therefore be made from organic vegetable matter. If you know about the organic regulations in our country you'd know that to be labeled "organic" your product has to be certified or be made from at least 70% (or around that number, I believe that's it) organic product.

I think everybody should know what the definition of organic is when dealing with foodstuffs, and if you had ever been to a large monoculture farm and a small organic farm that rotates their crops, there is a huge divide in the difference between the way they treat the planet and their intrinsic respect for your body.

I choose to vote for organic with my money, and I encourage others to also.

 

[awj03130]

Believe me, I love organic. I eat it as much as possible. But to slap it on the e-juice labels I think is wrong. Its not even regulated by FDA! I could call my DIY stuff organic. Wouldn't make it organic at all.

So after all those reactions to the propene from the organic veggies, do people honestly believe that 70% of what comes out is organic? I used to work for Starbucks and if we even put a bag of beans through the grinder, it would not be considered organic by the time it came out the other side. No joke - there was a sticker on the grinder. After running through an ion exchange resin, it's somehow still organic?

Doesn't make sense to me, at least.

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[Topacka]

By definition it IS organic. The vegetable matter was organic and that's the only requirement. The beans going through the grinder must be because there is other, non-organic material being processed into it from other beans, not the grinding process itself.

Now, I don't buy organic e-juice because of the reasons you mentioned, and it seems kind of silly to me, especially considering I vape 80 - 100% PG.

But what about VG? Does it go through a similar process, or is it closer to it's natural state?

And, are there still traces of non-organically certified pesticides in conventional PG/VG?

If the answer is no, there are no trace pesticides left behind, then it becomes an argument of semantics or the idea behind supporting organic farms. Not a health benefit.

But I'd be curious to know.

 

[awj03130]

Topacka -

Bear with me and read this... I'm on your side and there's some important info here. Read on...


Since I am a staunch supporter of the wonderful people that make the wonderful organic food we can buy... Such as those beautiful heirloom tomatoes I fall in love with every late summer - I am going to go on a rant here. Let me summarize by saying we should leave the organic label to the people that actually EARN it!


VG is actually produced from about 3 main sources, the very foremost being a by-product of the production of biodiesel (which is then purified and sold at different grades from heating fuel to pharmacological). It can also be synthesized from propene, coincidentally. There are traces of something in all VG/pg that I am aware of. The amount of the foreign matter is why we use USP VG and pg if possible (close to 100% pure by definition).

Traces of what? Well, we don't know. We take it on faith without the aid of a lab equipped to perform GC/MS - gas chromatography and mass spectrometry - which show exactly what it is.

The propene may have been from what was originally an organic plant, but is it really organic if it has been processed with sulfuric acid? Not by my book, at least.

As a matter of fact, not by the USDA's book. According to the USDA's National List of Allowable Nonorganic Substances, while glycerine is allowable, PG is not. Sulfuric Acid is also not listed. All of these are regulated under nonorganic substances allowable in the production of ( one section) or inclusion in (the other section) products labeled "organic". I wanted to be thorough, so I checked both sections. Neither list these compounds.

Certainly, I would be hard pressed to find any of the other chemicals required to manufacture flavors. I certainly don't recall cinnamaldyhyde or diacetyl being in that list...


From the USDA National Organic Program - Section 205.605 of below:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...de=7:3.1.1.9.32.7&idno=7#7:3.1.1.9.32.7.354.6


In fact, even under the USDA's lowest legally advertizable/marketable organic labeling class, it still does not meet USDA requirements - on both percentages and non-allowable substances.


For reference, USDA national Organic Program's vendor guide (in PDF so I can't post it), "Labeling Organic Products," about halfway down the page:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams...am&page=NOPFactSheets&resultType=&acct=noppub


Truth of the matter is that our juice is NOT organic. Its actually very far from organic. We should treat it as such, with a watchful eye. And the vendors who claim organic e-juice? We should watch them with a wary eye!



P.s. no health benefit that I'm aware of with the nonorganic VG/pg, assuming USP grade. Definitely not the case with flavor or additives, as shown by Cuttwood's Unicorn Milk, cinnamon flavors, and custard-type flavors. And, yes, I sort of agree with you on this being a semantic argument. I just can't get past taking an organic veg and chemically processing it to death. Oh, and disrespecting the work of the farmers who brought those goods to market... But, take it with a grain of salt, this is all coming from a guy who talks about the health benefits and delicious taste of raw milk at every chance...

P.p.s. you were right about the grinder ;-) shockingly, only one blend of Starbucks coffee is fair trade certified, since we happen to be on similar wavelengths...

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