Philip Morris debuts a new type of E Cigarette.

[edyle]

This makes me even more glad that I'm just about to start making my e-liquid using PEG400 -- I think it would be pretty hard to outlaw that stuff, it's used in SO MANY! products, but it's rather outside the norm for vaping. And I have some nicotine, and planning to get more before the FDA decides to muck everything up. So the only problem will be the flavors, and since I'm also moving away from tobacco towards fruit flavors, maybe other sweet flavors eventually, flavors may not be much of an issue as far as my own use.

Also -- approval may be significant for products not yet bought, but for the products I already own... see my sig line -- pry them from my cold, dead fingers before they'll get my PVs from me. So yeah I see a mechanical in my future, since those are a lot more straightforward to maintain, and should be able to outlast any electronic PV.

Factors like these are why I really don't see a worst-case scenario happening. No, things may indeed change, and not for the better, but the cat's out of the bag now, and you know, it's hard to everything to get a cat back in a bag it's once escaped from.

Andria

why are you using peg400 instead of pg? is it easier to get for you?

 

[Jman8]

I'd be interested in trying the iQOS, but not all that interested in buying one. I think there will be a market for them, but nothing that will rival the vaping market anytime soon.

 

[AndriaD]

why are you using peg400 instead of pg? is it easier to get for you?

Because using the 80%-85% PG that I had to use since I can't vape over 20% VG, was making my feet, ankles, and legs extremely swollen and painful; given the extreme dehydration caused by my illness, it would have been stupid to just resume vaping on top of that, just further compounding the dehydration problem, not a good thing at all when you're recuperating from infection and surgery and the massive dehydration brought on by vomiting and .........

So my last liquid-vaping option is PEG400.

Andria

 

[DrMA]

So my last liquid-vaping option is PEG400.

Andria

I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'll mention it nonetheless: there are several documented instances of PEG400 being contaminated with diethylene glycol (DEG). If you decide to mix your own ejuice with PEG400, make sure you buy it from a reputable source and that it is certified food-grade, or USP.

DEG is a very insidious toxin when exposure is at very low levels, and you wouldn't know you're being poisoned until you're in acute kidney and/or liver failure.

 

[AndriaD]

I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'll mention it nonetheless: there are several documented instances of PEG400 being contaminated with diethylene glycol (DEG). If you decide to mix your own ejuice with PEG400, make sure you buy it from a reputable source and that it is certified food-grade, or USP.

DEG is a very insidious toxin when exposure is at very low levels, and you wouldn't know you're being poisoned until you're in acute kidney and/or liver failure.

Well I did make sure that when I looked it up on eBay, I specified "USP", and the one I ordered does say "USP". If USP isn't good enough, then I think we're all in a lot of trouble, and not just with PEG.

Andria

 

[DaveP]

Don't worry ... ANTZ will jump on it and discredit it just like they are trying to do with ecigs.

I wouldn't buy anything from a cigarette company if they sold them to me for a penny a carton. I certainly wouldn't support their attempts at taking over the ecig market with some sort of new tech gadget.

 

[KurrptSenate]

They are trying to keep their regular business of selling cigarettes still a business. This type of vaporizer will definitely keep customers reliant upon the stores they still frequent to purchase their packs. There's no question that vaporizing the tobacco is less harmful as there's no combustion, but you still are exposed to the filler material which can't be a good thing

obviously for people that have already switched to vaping full-time, this wouldn't be geared towards them. If this product helps people make the switch, I can't imagine why that would be a bad thing in the long run.

 

[DaveP]

They are trying to keep their regular business of selling cigarettes still a business. This type of vaporizer will definitely keep customers reliant upon the stores they still frequent to purchase their packs. There's no question that vaporizing the tobacco is less harmful as there's no combustion, but you still are exposed to the filler material which can't be a good thing

obviously for people that have already switched to vaping full-time, this wouldn't be geared towards them. If this product helps people make the switch, I can't imagine why that would be a bad thing in the long run.

You are right. It's all about market share. They have had 100% of the smoking public for decades and they see the transition taking place. Now, they have to reinvent themselves to prevent market erosion.

 

[Jman8]

Adapting to the new innovations in the market seems like a wise decision regardless of the company. Doing it 5 or so years after the fact makes me wonder if they'll be like Kodak was in their market. Though analogs still seems like a cash cow from the outside in perspective.

 

[zoiDman]

They are trying to keep their regular business of selling cigarettes still a business. This type of vaporizer will definitely keep customers reliant upon the stores they still frequent to purchase their packs. There's no question that vaporizing the tobacco is less harmful as there's no combustion, but you still are exposed to the filler material which can't be a good thing

obviously for people that have already switched to vaping full-time, this wouldn't be geared towards them. If this product helps people make the switch, I can't imagine why that would be a bad thing in the long run.

I agree KurrptSenate.

I also think that if Anyone besides a BT Company had come out with something like this IQOS, that the General Reaction here would be Much More Favorable.

And seen as what it Probably Is. Harm Reduction. And a Possible Half-Step towards using e-Cigarettes 100% of the time.

 

[DaveP]

Adapting to the new innovations in the market seems like a wise decision regardless of the company. Doing it 5 or so years after the fact makes me wonder if they'll be like Kodak was in their market. Though analogs still seems like a cash cow from the outside in perspective.

Who'da thunk that digital cameras would eventually be better than most film?

My ecig beats my old cigarettes any day of the week. It's what allowed me to quit. I vaped side by side and realized that one stunk and tasted crappy. The other one tasted really good. Guess which one won?

The key is to get smokers to adopt vaping and like it. The chief complaint of new vapers is, "It isn't like my cigarette. How can I make it taste the same?". That may be the market that big tobacco is targeting.

Tobacco companies may be a lot of things, but Stupid isn't one of those.

 

[edyle]

They are trying to keep their regular business of selling cigarettes still a business. This type of vaporizer will definitely keep customers reliant upon the stores they still frequent to purchase their packs. There's no question that vaporizing the tobacco is less harmful as there's no combustion, but you still are exposed to the filler material which can't be a good thing

obviously for people that have already switched to vaping full-time, this wouldn't be geared towards them. If this product helps people make the switch, I can't imagine why that would be a bad thing in the long run.

1: I think "roasting" might describe what the device does? Seems to me its combustion once oxygen is combining with the material.

2: The device uses filler material? I thought there was no liquid?

 

[DaveP]

The battle has just begun, IMO. The article below talks about how ecig patents are being bought up left and right. Hon Lik, the founder of Ruyan has joined a company who is doing just that. I always wondered when some group would begin buying up patents for ecigs in an attempt to control the market or tear it to pieces.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2014/03/e-cigarette-patent-wars

E-cigarette patent wars
A case of the vapers

Mar 17th 2014

IT IS perhaps a truism that when big tobacco marches in, its lawyers are never far behind. So it is proving with e-cigarettes. Earlier this month Fontem Ventures, a Netherlands-based subsidiary of Britain’s Imperial Tobacco, sued 11 American e-cigarette makers in federal court for a range of patent infringements. Among the companies Imperial wants to smoke out are NJoy, Logic Technology Development and LOEC, a subsidiary of tobacco-giant Lorillard that also owns e-cigarette maker Blu eCigs. The trio controls about three-quarters of high-street sales in America’s swiftly growing $1.5 billion “vaping” market (business online, where many e-cigarettes are sold, is less concentrated).

The defendants probably saw this coming. Imperial set up Fontem Ventures (and its sister co-plaintiff, Fontem Holdings) in late 2012 “to acquire, manage, operate, encumber and dispose of property, including patents and other intellectual property rights,” among other things. In November 2013 Fontem paid $75 million for a portfolio of global e-cigarette patents from Dragonite International, a Hong Kong-based firm. Dragonite's co-founder, Hon Lik, also joined the company.

This was something of a coup for Imperial, because Mr Lik has been credited with the invention of the modern e-cigarette, initially using a piezoelectric ultrasound element to vaporise a solution containing purified nicotine. Today’s e-cigarettes (including his own) are simpler, using a battery-powered heating element as a vaporiser. But Mr Lik was canny. He registered (and won) patents around the world that cover far broader concepts. Those at the heart of Fontem’s lawsuits cover the concepts of “aerosol electronic cigarette”, “electronic atomization cigarette” and simply “electronic cigarette”.

 

[Stosh]

The battle has just begun, IMO. The article below talks about how ecig patents are being bought up left and right. Hon Lik, the founder of Ruyan has joined a company who is doing just that. I always wondered when some group would begin buying up patents for ecigs in an attempt to control the market or tear it to pieces.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2014/03/e-cigarette-patent-wars

Now that's interesting, the patents were filed and granted when cigalikes were the norm. If the patents are found "substantially equivalent" in a legal setting, how would that affect the FDA's SE findings??

This all appears to be headed to the courts for many, many years, in different courtrooms, for different reasons....

 

[DaveP]

Now that's interesting, the patents were filed and granted when cigalikes were the norm. If the patents are found "substantially equivalent" in a legal setting, how would that affect the FDA's SE findings??

This all appears to be headed to the courts for many, many years, in different courtrooms, for different reasons....

I hope it's a battle that's fun to sit on the sidelines and chuckle at. At any rate, it will be interesting. I wonder also if big tobacco ignored ecigs until the market grew into the billions and then sat up in amazement. I rather think that they have been waiting for right time to enter and clean up.

Do Hon Lik's patents cover everything, as you stated? Or, do you need licensing from him to put out anything that steams a liquid to deliver nic? Have the later inventors sufficiently sidestepped his original patents?

Lots of questions to answer. I hope that good lawyers were involved in bringing higher tech to market. Just to be on the safe side I'm wandering into rebuildables. I already had a Genesis RSST and today I ordered a EHPro Kayfun 3.1. If it all blows up I'll just need Kanthal and cotton. Now, where we gonna get some juice? DIY appears to be more in my future. I've been using Dekang juices as a base for a long while.

 

[zoiDman]

Now that's interesting, the patents were filed and granted when cigalikes were the norm. If the patents are found "substantially equivalent" in a legal setting, how would that affect the FDA's SE findings??

This all appears to be headed to the courts for many, many years, in different courtrooms, for different reasons....

Yeah... And do you know Who will be the Big Winners?

The Lawyers on Both Sides.

 

[Stosh]

Yeah... And do you know Who will be the Big Winners?

The Lawyers on Both Sides.

Q.) What do you call a 6 foot pile of dead lawyers?


A.) A good start....

 

[Bill Godshall]

Time ran the same article on PMI's new product, which will not be named Marlboro in the US because the 1998 MSA prohibits participating manufacturers from marketing new products using cigarette brand names)
Philip Morris to Sell Real Tobacco ‘HeatSticks’ As Cigarette Alternative - TIME

Interestingly, if PMI's new product uses (but doesn't contain) tobacco, the FDA would consider it to be a "component" of a tobacco product (similar to pipes, as well as mods/tanks).

 

[zoiDman]

...

Interestingly, if PMI's new product uses (but doesn't contain) tobacco, the FDA would consider it to be a "component" of a tobacco product (similar to pipes, as well as mods/tanks).

So than it would Not Need any FDA Approval?

 

[Kent C]

So than it would Not Need any FDA Approval?

In the deeming doc, "components" still need FDA approval. "Accessories" do not. Accessories aren't defined like 'our' accessories are. Humidors, pipe cleaners, ecig cases, etc. are accessories. Mods, tanks are "components".