Questions on a new mech mod. Vent holes etc.

[Dr. Seuss]

Hey guys,

I got a new mod in the mail and have had a few questions come to mind in regards to it. It’s a brass Infinite Cartel, pretty straight forward mod. Of all the metals that are used to make mods I hear brass isn’t the best and was wondering if it’s a thing that a specific type of brass is usually used for these mods or if it’s pretty random. I read you can mix brass to be a better conductor and there’s even “electrical brass” used specifically for conductors. Just a random question I was wondering.

On this specific mod there are vent holes and I’m wondering if there’s really any point of them even being there because it doesn’t seem like they would vent anything. Up at the top next to the 510, and then on the button cap on the inside but not on the button, it would have to vent out through the seam of the button. These are probably common features but I snapped a few pics anyways. On the inside of the button cap, at 1 o’clock you can see a little hole in there. I didn’t want to tamper with the o-ring to remove it.



In the event of a battery venting are those even going to amount to anything or should this mod be considered as having no vent holes?

Also for those with a discerning eye is there anything you would recommend? I’ve read about replacing springs or replacing the 510 with better conducting metal pin. I just read in another thread about dielectric grease you put on the pin to help against arch marks but I wonder how that would be with a battery and keeping that clean. Any recommendations on the best way to store it? I don’t plan on using it anytime soon so it will just be sitting on the shelf, and I honestly don’t know much about brass other than I think my mom had a lamp made of it when I was a kid. Is there any sort of tarnish I should be conscious of that would have a detrimental effect?

The vent holes are my main question, those don’t look like they’ll vent anything. The rest are just round about maintenance questions and whether I should be proactive about anything or just let it be. I appreciate it.

 

[Ben85]

Can’t comment on the vent holes as I have not used that mod, but with regards to the maintenance I think you are over thinking things. Just keep threads and contacts clean. No need to do anything else. Also brass is not a bad conductor, not the best, but better than some (stainless steel for example). If you like patina, let it patina. If you don’t, keep it clean but dont excessively polish it. You won’t damage it by doing nothing, but you will remove engravings etc from excessive polishing.

Excuse me if this is not the case but it sounds like this could be your first mech? Please have a good read up on the basic safety elements to these (they are very basic but crucial). Ultimately, always remember to build to your battery. Mechs are awesome when used safely.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

There are 2 events a battery may enter

Battery venting is a very low pressure release of gas – so low, there is little to no pressure build up within a device. Vent holes then become scent holes.

Thermal Runway is an unpredictable, violent reaction due to an extreme increase of internal temperature. It can expel many liters of hot gas within milliseconds. The cell may expel out the positive side, may split down the side, expelling out that rupture, or it may explode. No predicting what it will do!

Although some claim vent holes are safer than no vent holes. For low pressure battery venting, I would kinda agree. The holes do allow the gasses to be released, but there is very little pressure from a venting cell. Hence why I jokingly call them scent holes

For containing and or controlling a thermal runaway event – I question their functionality and usefulness. The tensile strength of the device, which includes all threaded connections, must exceed the maximum pressures a thermal runaway battery is able to create. And only then can a vent hole be functional in decompressing assuming they have not been hindered by a swollen cell or debris.

Best course of action with a thermal runaway event, is to not enter a state of thermal runaway. Do not exceed the batteries recommended CDR. Double, triple check your builds for shorts and ensure your batteries are in top condition.

 

[mimöschen]

There is little to no noticeable difference between various metals when it comes to the power output of a mech.
What matters most is which type of connections the mech has. The more moving parts and threaded pieces, the higher the power loss. Corrosion and arcing marks are another source for that, so keep your mech's connections and threads as clean as possible.
While copper may be a better conductor than aluminum, brass and stainless steel , the latter are way easier to keep in good shape, so maintenance is less of an issue with those materials.

 

[sonicbomb]

"if you want peace, prepare for war"
If you are well informed about mech and battery safety and don't get complacent, then concerns about venting become less important.
What battery are you using and what resistance coils are you using?
As others here have said the mech material is less important to voltage drop than the actual design of the device. The fact is that single battery mechs are inherently inefficient, and the higher power level you aim for the worse it gets.

Have a good read of the following articles, and of course read Mooch's blog.

(8) A Beginner's Guide to Your First Mechanical Mod | E-Cigarette Forum
Battery Safety | E-Cigarette Forum
Understanding Battery Capability/Capacity | E-Cigarette Forum
Ohms/Watts Law - Calculating safe amp usage | E-Cigarette Forum
Choosing a coil for a single battery unregulated device | E-Cigarette Forum
Understanding the relationship between power and coil resistance | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Baditude]

I happen to be a strong advocate for functional vent holes in a metal tube mechanical mod. My theory is if a battery vents gas in an enclosed metal tube with no avenue to escape, that mod becomes a pipe bomb.

As Punk in Dublic has said above, there are two types of battery events that can occur during a battery hard short. Venting and thermal runaway. Mooch has a detailed descripton of both in this article: Li-Ion Battery Chemistries - What are the differences in their safety?

If a battery goes into thermal runaway, then no amount of venting is going to help prevent an explosion. It is an irreversable chemical reaction with catastrophic consequences.

What's left of a metal tube mechanical mod whose battery went into thermal runaway

If a battery vents, then properly located vent holes of adequate size allows the gas to escape, preventing the pipe bomb scenario.

The question then becomes, what are the best locations for the vent holes, and what is the adequate size they should be?

Batteries are designed to vent from the positive end of the battery, so theoretically the best location for holes would be where the positive end of the battery is located when inside of the tube.

Ideal location for vent holes

Many mechs have a vent hole in the fire button in the bottom of the mod. A venting battery may swell in girth to the point that gas can not escape around the swollen battery to the escape point at the bottom end of the mod. So this location may be ineffective.

Not much room for gas to escape should a battery swell

Next, hole size. The bigger the better, but that's just my opinion. Probably no manufacturer has done any testing on what is an effective size. A rudimentary test you can perform on your own would be to blow through end of the tube to see if any air can easily escape.

Some people drill their own vent holes. Lucky you if you own your own drill press. It's extremely difficult to drill holes in a metal tube with a hand drill.
________

I don't see any avenues of gas escape in the Infinite Cartel mech.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

If a battery vents, then properly located vent holes of adequate size allows the gas to escape, preventing the pipe bomb scenario.

I have not seen any credible evidence that states a venting (not thermal) battery expels enough gas to create enough pressure within a sealed tube to turn it into a pipe bomb. This thread, most notably page 3, has a few interesting comments – I invite you to have a read.

To note: The thread is under the "Not Advisable" category. You must be logged in to view it.

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/tried-to-blow-up-a-mech-fail.905775/page-3

 

[Baditude]

Worst case measurements I’ve seen show about 2.0L to 2.5L of gas released per cell Ah.

I have not seen any credible evidence that states a venting (not thermal) battery expels enough gas to create enough pressure within a sealed tube to turn it into a pipe bomb. This thread, most notably page 3, has a few interesting comments – I invite you to have a read.

To note: The thread is under the "Not Advisable" category. You must be logged in to view it.

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/tried-to-blow-up-a-mech-fail.905775/page-3

I read the original post whenever it was originally posted. I did read all of page 3.

2 - 2.5 L of gas seems like a lot to me, but I can only relate to "liters" in fluid volume.

All I know is from personal experience. I had a battery vent/explode in a 14500- battery tube mech. The mod had no vent holes, but the fire button was designed to blow out during a short circuit from over-discharging, which it did. There was enough gas pressure to blow the fire button out. I'm thankful that the fire button blew out, or the mod may have blown apart.

 

[Baditude]

Maybe I should add here that I haven't used a mech mod in over two years. The primary reason is that I prefer using power regulation and the ability to adjust my vape on the fly. Secondary reason is there is very little or no safety built into a metal tube mech, so why take the risk of using one? The batteries that we use for vaping are extremely powerful which can do a lot of harm should an accident occur. Having an atomizer be propelled into my skull is not my idea of having fun.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I read the original post whenever it was originally posted. I did read all of page 3.

2 - 2.5 L of gas seems like a lot to me, but I can only relate to "liters" in fluid volume.

All I know is from personal experience. I had a battery vent/explode in a 14500- battery tube mech. The mod had no vent holes, but the fire button was designed to blow out during a short circuit from over-discharging, which it did. There was enough gas pressure to blow the fire button out. I'm thankful that the fire button blew out, or the mod may have blown apart.

Actually I was hoping you picked up on ”A venting battery releases a tiny, tiny amount of gas which will probably couldn’t even be read as a pressure increase in a sealed tube mod.”

If there is fact to this, even allowing a margin of possibilities, then how can a venting (not thermal runaway) battery create a pipe bomb scenario?

In your case – are you 100% confident that the blow out of the fire button was what saved your mod from exploding? How about the integrity of the mod was enough to contain the pressures created by the thermal runaway cell - which I will add a 14500 cell releases a much smaller amount of gas vs todays high capacity 18650’s and 2x700’s.

A device needs to be engineered to contain and control a thermal event. I do not see this level of engineering within ANY vape device, and not just tube mech’s. That said, I do not feel it is fair to state one mech is safer than another due to vent holes of questionable functionality where the mechanical device that does not have vent holes could very well employ the tensile strength to contain a thermal event.

 

[Baditude]

Actually I was hoping you picked up on ”A venting battery releases a tiny, tiny amount of gas which will probably couldn’t even be read as a pressure increase in a sealed tube mod.”

If there is fact to this, even allowing a margin of possibilities, then how can a venting (not thermal runaway) battery create a pipe bomb scenario?

In your case – are you 100% confident that the blow out of the fire button was what saved your mod from exploding? How about the integrity of the mod was enough to contain the pressures created by the thermal runaway cell - which I will add a 14500 cell releases a much smaller amount of gas vs todays high capacity 18650’s and 2x700’s.

A device needs to be engineered to contain and control a thermal event. I do not see this level of engineering within ANY vape device, and not just tube mech’s. That said, I do not feel it is fair to state one mech is safer than another due to vent holes of questionable functionality where the mechanical device that does not have vent holes could very well employ the tensile strength to contain a thermal event.

In my case, I'm convinced the blowing out of the fire button saved the mod from exploding. To be fair, the battery used was an ICR Trustfire battery which has a more volitile/explosive chemistry than today's hybrid batteries. This point can be argued, but I've read that the bigger the battery the bigger the reaction.

And furthermore, how does one know if their battery is merely venting or going into thermal runaway during the event? If your mod or battery is too hot to touch, the best action is to throw the mod down far away from other people.

Always a good debate with you, Punk in Dublic.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

In my case, I'm convinced the blowing out of the fire button saved the mod from exploding. To be fair, the battery used was an ICR Trustfire battery which has a more volitile/explosive chemistry than today's hybrid batteries. This point can be argued, but I've read that the bigger the battery the bigger the reaction.

And furthermore, how does one know if their battery is merely venting or going into thermal runaway during the event? If your mod or battery is too hot to touch, the best action is to throw the mod down far away from other people.

Always a good debate with you, Punk in Dublic.

Good point. I do not know how one knows if either event is taking place. People have reported hearing a hiss, and smelling the gas when a battery vents.

I have read testimonies and viewed videos where a thermal event gave no indication that it was about to happen. One video I saw showed a guy placing his metal, magnetic battery door onto a regulated device. He carelessly, or mistakenly (however you wish to classify it) shorted the battery terminals – the batteries blew instantly – the device flew around for a bit and burnt a nice sized hole in his carpet. Fortunately no one was injured…and there were kids in the house. Heat is not always going to present itself as an indication that a cell is about to enter a thermal event.

My understanding is that size, capacity and chemistry are all contributing factors to how violent a thermal event can be. What I do not know, is how these factors, when combined equate to how violent a thermal event can become. Meaning, is a more volatile chemistry at low capacity more violent than a less volatile chemistry at much higher capacity. I do understand the internal temperatures that trigger the event do differ between chemistries.

And I just want to emphasize that I am not against the use of vent holes. I just do not trust their functionality for there has been no objective data that proves their capabilities. I believe that a device without vent holes can be structurally capable of containing a thermal event and that one that does employ vent holes, may not have the same level of integrity thus posing a threat. The outcome can sway to favour either or. So is it fair to say one is safer than the other? I do not believe so. And this is not segregated to mech tube mods but any device that allows the use of these batteries. The mod does not cause batteries to blow up. User neglect/ignorance while using the mod causes the batteries to blow up.

And always great conversing with you Baditude

 

[Baditude]

Much of my beliefs come from long timer and ECF forum manager [B]@rolygate[/B] . He is responsible for most of the articles present in The ECF Library, and was also considered a battery expert. I'm not sure if I can still find the below information that he wrote that I can link to. Many of the links in the Library no longer work.

- Sealed metal tubes will probably explode if a battery vents violently
-The battery itself may physically block gas from escaping to the bottom of the mod
- Small vents at the bottom of the tube are useless, only very large gas vents near the top have a good chance of preventing an explosion
- Building coils lower than 0.2 ohm will raise the amp draw exponentially and this increases risk - the power graph shows a significant change at 0.2 ohms and starts to climb vertically as resistance is reduced further
- Using cheap batteries with ultra low res coils is a certain route to high risk - it needs 30 amp batteries of guaranteed high quality
- Using long draws or machine-gun draws to create monster clouds stresses the battery much more
- Cloud Contests are events where people put ultra high stress on their rig to create monster clouds; if spectating, you could consider standing at the back of the room to stay safe
- If you run a Cloud Contest then you should probably check that your personal and business insurance is really, really good and is appropriate for dangerous sports
- People are now discussing the safety (!) involved with putting 100-amp pulses on their batteries in order to create the biggest clouds with the lowest resistance coils; there is only one way this is going to go and you don't want to be within the explosion radius: someone may have a counterfeit battery, or one that is just too small for this extreme usage mode together with ignoring the device getting warm or even hot.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Would agree with some of those claims, but some of it is just subjective opinion.

-Agree that sealed metal tubes might explode if a battery enters a thermal event (not vent). BUT, same can be said about a metal tube with vent holes that can not decompress in a timely fashion. The rate of decompression must be so that the increase of pressure does not reach a compromising state where structural integrity is at risk of failing. Proper engineering needs to be applied and not half hazard drilling of holes, which can very well compromise integrity.

-Batteries that enter a thermal event do not always expel out their positive side. Placement of vent holes now becomes of question. In such a case, the tensile strength of the device must contain the thermal event.

- 0.2 ohms is a 21 amp draw at 4.2 volts. There are many cells that can handle this safely.

-avoiding cheap cells is just common scene. Have to agree with this one.

- Sure long draws (never heard of machine gun draws) can stress a cell, build accordingly to your CDR limits. This is not just for mechs either, long pulls with a regulated device pose the same risk. There is also a level of diminishing returns here – both the human capabilities and the saturation of wick (the rate of saturation) has it limits. Long draws have to fall within these limits.

-Never been to a cloud contest. Viewing builds online seems many build well within limitations of a typical 25 to 35 amp cell. Open that some may build lower, thus increase risk, but do not think one brush can be used to paint all cloud comp chasers as dangerous users

-Any public event that may pose a risk of injury should have the appropriate insurance.

-100 amp draw requires a 0.04 ohm coil at 4.2 volts to achieve. There comes a point where resistance is no longer viewed as resistance to a battery, but viewed as a dead short (which also has a measurable resistance). I’m going to chalk this one up as speculation but open that some idiot may have tried it. And yes, counterfeit batteries pose a high risk to all users, mechanical and regulated alike. It is an unfortunate reality. And ignoring heat, regardless of device, is negligence.

 

[Dr. Seuss]

Excuse me if this is not the case but it sounds like this could be your first mech? Please have a good read up on the basic safety elements to these (they are very basic but crucial). Ultimately, always remember to build to your battery. Mechs are awesome when used safely.

That would be the case and I appreciate the heads up, I’ve never owned or used a mech mod. I feel relatively sure I could use it in a safe manner if it came down to some scenario where I had to but not sure enough to actually try it. There’s a whole lot of lack of trust with me and the things involved with running one, from the equipment to just plain user error.

I picked it up for the purposes of being a display piece for the shelf. I think they’re beautiful and sort of, not intimidating I can’t think of the word but a sort of awe kind of thing. We’ll go with majestic, they’re majestic.

So I was checking it out and playing various scenarios through my mind and the battery positive up + lack of vent holes that would equate to anything as far as I understand high/rapid pressure scenarios + the thickness of the tube (it it unusually thick from what I’ve seen) made me think the weak link would be the threads and if those go it would ultimately propel the top cap with atty directly at my face. I don’t think a battery would tear through that tube with the threads being a path of least resistance for the pressure to get out of.

I was reading the thread in this forum, I can’t seem to find it but it was a guy getting a “Bad @$$” mech mod, and someone posted pictures of where things went south for a few folks. That combined with the pic above of the shrapnel, those trump the horrors of nicotine withdrawl for me, so the whole risk reward scale would have it that, I would personally choose nic withdrawl should it come down to one or the other. It’s a little graphic (which I have no problem with) but it puts a face to the name... it’s a reality check not found in just text warnings.

Full disclosure, I’m unsure enough about regulated mods, not because I haven’t done my homework but because I spent about a decade in the car parts business and my faith in man’s ability to build was greatly diminished after seeing some of the things I did. Especially Chinese parts. We build great things, but the consistency could use some work. Which in a round about way makes mechs more safe than regulated in that regard, it’s all on you. That’s a whole other discussion though.

So I don’t plan on using this mod anytime soon even though there was a little bit of, if chip mods disappear this will forever be an option, in the back of my head. There’s something about the stripped down “purity”, simple, bare bones nature of a mech mod that appeals to me. It’s a “brutally honest” sort of quality that I have a great deal of respect for so it goes so far as a sort of symbolism up there on my shelf... but that’s all just stuff going on in my head.

Sort of how people respect cats because you never really domesticate them, things like that.

So it sounds like the best way to maintain the shine is to just not touch it. That makes it simple.

 

[Outcast]

I would think how Thick the tube is would play into if a tube would explode as well also your mod would get vary hot before
I really wonder what it would take to vent today’s cells

Disclaimer I’m going to talk stuff this is not safe do not do I no longer vape this way

I have vaped all the way down to a .06
Vaped all day at a .08
Ran .16 on stacked
It really seems today cells would take a lot to vent
That said I wonder if how think they tube is helps pull heat away from the cell I really don’t know just wondering


Vent holes I always but + to the vent holes

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Zaryk]

That said I wonder if how think they tube is helps pull heat away from the cell I really don’t know just wondering

It does absorb some heat from the battery, but I don't think it would be enough to stop a venting/thermal runaway event. If the outside of the battery is getting hot enough to transfer heat, the inside of the battery is already much higher in temp than the outside and probably getting to the point of having a battery event, but definitely to the point of degrading the battery. Repeated degrading of a battery will turn a 30a cell into a 20a cell (or lower) increasing the risk of a battery event happening.

So basically the internal temp is what counts and no matter what tube you put that battery in, it won't draw heat away fast enough to make any real difference.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I would think how Thick the tube is would play into if a tube would explode as well also your mod would get vary hot before
I really wonder what it would take to vent today’s cells

Disclaimer I’m going to talk stuff this is not safe do not do I no longer vape this way

I have vaped all the way down to a .06
Vaped all day at a .08
Ran .16 on stacked
It really seems today cells would take a lot to vent
That said I wonder if how think they tube is helps pull heat away from the cell I really don’t know just wondering


Vent holes I always but + to the vent holes

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thermal event is an uncontrolled exothermic decomposition of compounds within a cell. This could happen over a somewhat gradual period of time, where heat may be felt. BUT… once triggered, there is nothing that says putting the device down will prevent it. The transfer of heat is also not consistent across many materials. If a cells internal temperature is reaching >100°C, what is the temperature of the exposed portion of the device?

A Thermal event could also happen suddenly, internal cell temperatures can rise at such a rate, the thermal event will be triggered before that heat is transferred to the exposed portion of the device.

Also agree that the thickness of the mod may play a roll in whether it breaks under pressure or not. But, how thick does it have to be and should mods that are made of different materials compensate for this? Stainless Steel is stronger than brass - all tolerances have to be accounted for? Pressure will find a path of least resistance to decompress – the threaded 510 of all mechs could easily be a point vulnerability.

A thermal event may also not expel out the positive end of a battery. Many videos display how the metal housing can split under pressure which leads one to question battery orientation.

In order to contain a thermal event while mitigating as much risk of human injury as possible, the device HAS to be engineered as such. Drilling random holes of unknown functionality is not proper engineering.

 

[DeloresRose]

That would be the case and I appreciate the heads up, I’ve never owned or used a mech mod. I feel relatively sure I could use it in a safe manner if it came down to some scenario where I had to but not sure enough to actually try it. There’s a whole lot of lack of trust with me and the things involved with running one, from the equipment to just plain user error.

I picked it up for the purposes of being a display piece for the shelf. I think they’re beautiful and sort of, not intimidating I can’t think of the word but a sort of awe kind of thing. We’ll go with majestic, they’re majestic.

So I was checking it out and playing various scenarios through my mind and the battery positive up + lack of vent holes that would equate to anything as far as I understand high/rapid pressure scenarios + the thickness of the tube (it it unusually thick from what I’ve seen) made me think the weak link would be the threads and if those go it would ultimately propel the top cap with atty directly at my face. I don’t think a battery would tear through that tube with the threads being a path of least resistance for the pressure to get out of.

I was reading the thread in this forum, I can’t seem to find it but it was a guy getting a “Bad @$$” mech mod, and someone posted pictures of where things went south for a few folks. That combined with the pic above of the shrapnel, those trump the horrors of nicotine withdrawl for me, so the whole risk reward scale would have it that, I would personally choose nic withdrawl should it come down to one or the other. It’s a little graphic (which I have no problem with) but it puts a face to the name... it’s a reality check not found in just text warnings.

Full disclosure, I’m unsure enough about regulated mods, not because I haven’t done my homework but because I spent about a decade in the car parts business and my faith in man’s ability to build was greatly diminished after seeing some of the things I did. Especially Chinese parts. We build great things, but the consistency could use some work. Which in a round about way makes mechs more safe than regulated in that regard, it’s all on you. That’s a whole other discussion though.

So I don’t plan on using this mod anytime soon even though there was a little bit of, if chip mods disappear this will forever be an option, in the back of my head. There’s something about the stripped down “purity”, simple, bare bones nature of a mech mod that appeals to me. It’s a “brutally honest” sort of quality that I have a great deal of respect for so it goes so far as a sort of symbolism up there on my shelf... but that’s all just stuff going on in my head.

Sort of how people respect cats because you never really domesticate them, things like that.

So it sounds like the best way to maintain the shine is to just not touch it. That makes it simple.

I bought a few mechs for the same reason, because they’re not going to fail sitting in a box for 10-20 years, if regulated mods become impossible to source and all of mine crap out.

But I do use mine, I want to be comfortable and competent in the event that one day they’re all I have.

There is more than sufficient information on this forum to do so safely thanks to folks like @Baditude and @Punk In Drublic.

I’ve read so much here, and started a little notebook of things to know, just in case, someday, we don’t have this community to go to for assistance.

I think you’ll do fine, because you have a healthy respect for mechs, and you are open to learning. The only advice I’d like to give you is to find an unregulated protected mod. You have to calculate and use it like a mech, but it’ll let you know if anything is wrong. It’ll build your confidence. It’s like training wheels on a bike, you have to learn to balance, pedal, and steer, but it’ll keep you from hitting the pavement while you do.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I’ve read so much here, and started a little notebook of things to know, just in case, someday, we don’t have this community to go to for assistance.

Great process Documenting and calculating without the aid of simple calculators is an excellent way to familiarize yourself