RANT: Don’t look here for Political Correctness !!!

[Petrodus]

If Honesty were suddenly introduced into American life,
the whole system would collapse. George Carlin

I'm 62 and remember when we could smoke cigarettes at work. Not in a "smoking lounge" but smoke on the job, in restaurants, on airplanes, and in movie theaters. Smoking was permitted almost everywhere and cigarette commercials were on TV.

Fast Forward to the present: Cigarettes now are referred to as "Coffin Nails".

In many states you can't even light-up when ordering a drink at the local tavern. And in many areas you are not even permitted to light-up out outside on the sidewalk.

Those who smoke cigarettes have been degraded and pushed around and been told "Your nothing but a smoker!" If you tried to quit and went back to cigarettes... "Your nothing but a weak minded smoker with no will power!"

Nicotine patches and gum (FDA approved drug delivery devices) should be purchased to "do the trick".

FINALLY... E-cigarettes come on the market and guess what? The FDA (AKA Monsanto) announced they are harmful and should not be used.

The FDA advised marketers that it is illegal to state anywhere that E-cigarettes help people to stop smoking cigarettes and E-cigarettes are not approved by the FDA.

It is interesting to see that the FDA's "modus operandi" has been consistent: Label anything that doesn't come from one of their sponsors as a "new drug", seize it, and then attempt to bully the company out of existence.

Big Brother and the tobacco companies couldn't care less about Nicotine patches, Nicotine gum, Acupuncture, Hypnosis and other (FDA approved) methods used to stop smoking cigarettes. The reason is obvious. The success rate is so small it has little impact on their money trails.

I would love to watch an open debate (on TV) comparing cigarettes with E-cigarettes. Saturday night would be a good time slot. Everyone would be waiting to hear..."Live From New York...It's Saturday Night Live"

I wish George Carlin (the Last Voice of Reason) was still with us. George's factual yet comedic comparison of "Legal" cigarettes with the "Under Review" E-cigarettes would be Priceless!

Press Release (tongue-in-cheek): Big Brother, the FDA, the tobacco industry, and Pharmaceutical companies agreed there will be no discussion on banning the sale of cigarettes. Further more, there will be no open discussion comparing E-cigarettes with cigarettes. "Nothing personal...Just Business"

Electronic cigarettes will save Millions of lives, providing the FDA doesn’t make them illegal.

Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations. Thomas Jefferson

_________________________________________________
Previous post (earlier this month)

Secrets of the FDA: Suppressed Information
Jonathan W. Emord
Only attorney in history who has defeated the FDA 7 times
6 Times on First Amendment grounds
Click Here

 

[asti]

I went looking for the video Petrodus, but couldn't find it sorry... you can grab the link and just do a reply to thread or quick reply, then click on the "world" icon to add the link....

Adored George, yes he would indeed have a field day with this!

 

[HzG8rGrl]

I always loved Mr. Carlin. I actually got the chance to go see him in Vegas, so glad I got to go and watch him in person. Yes, his truthful version about our situation would be spot on-telling it like it is.

 

[Algernon]

Welcome to America.

To quote Bill Mahr.

"They don't want a drug-free America, they wan't an America free of the drugs that are their competition."

I think that sums up the entire deal about e-cigarettes in a nutshell.

 

[Petrodus]

asti wrote: I went looking for the video Petrodus, but couldn't find it sorry... you can grab the link and just do a reply to thread or quick reply, then click on the "world" icon to add the link....

Here's the Link

I highly suggest listening to the entire interview

FDA - Sometimes the truth is more than we want to hear
Secrets of the FDA: Suppressed Information
Jonathan W. Emord
Only attorney in history who has defeated the FDA 7 times
6 Times on First Amendment grounds
Click Here

 

[Magus86]

Georgie was one of the few people with the balls to tell it like it is. He didn't sugar coat anything, and he saw right thru the BS. He believed in simple, honest, direct language, not burying everything under jargon... It was such a sad day when he died... I never got the chance to see him live. I wouldn't say he's the last voice of reason, but he's probably the last one anybody will have listened to.

"And now they're thinking about banning toy guns... And they're gonna keep the ....in real ones!!!"

This world is so ridiculously screwed up. All your life, you're told to believe in faerie tale BS. "Mr. Policeman is your friend, he just wants to protect you." "to protect and serve," my .... I think Matt Stone and Trey Parker got it right on Officer Barbrady's car: "To Patronize and annoy." We're all pretty much brought up on the idea that most people are good and care about each other, and the powers that be are here for your own good... It doesn't take long for some of us to realize what a crock that is. If they gave a crap about us, THEY WOULD PROMOTE THESE THINGS. But the age old saying is so true: Money makes the world go round. Nobody will ever lift a finger unless they get paid for it, and who they lift their finger for depends on who's got the highest bid. What it boils down to is that if we had enough money, we could get the FDA and others to leave us alone or even promote these things, but that'll never happen. I don't know how things got the way they are, but it's very unsettling. So today they're trying to ban e-cigs. What will they do next?

They''ll tell you the same thing about doctors and pharmacists as they do about cops: oh, they're just there for your own good, they just want to help solve all your ailments... Except that if they wanted to solve them, they'd do so already. Drug companies' jobs are NOT to CURE ANYTHING. Their jobs are to develop a drug that will keep your health problem under control just enough so you can live a somewhat normal life but still need to take the drug every day. If they cured anything, they'd have a lot less work and a lot less money coming in. They changed the definition of a disease to being something that only a drug can treat, cure, or prevent. So that means that it's illegal to make claims that anything other than a drug can do either of those things, regardless of whether or not it's true. It doesn't matter how much scientific data there is to back it up, the FDA will never allow you to make statements that are totally true because if people found out there was a natural cheap remedy for certain "diseases," they wouldn't go to the pharmacy to buy ridiculously expensive drugs.

What is this world coming to? Is there nothing more important to human beings than money and power? Why do people feel the need to impose their will on each other so much? Why can't we all just live peacefully and ignore each other if we can't agree on something? It seems like everybody wants as much money as they can possibly get, and most will stop at NOTHING to get it. They don't care who they trample and/or kill in the process, and no amount of money is ever enough. This world is very depressing sometimes, especially now that a comedic genius like George Carlin is no longer with us...

 

[asti]

Here's the Link

FDA - Sometimes the truth is more than we want to hear
Click Here

Thanks, hope everyone listens in...astonishing

 

[banjo]

Thanks Petrodus: your post made my day!

 

[Maeve]

Great post! I'm listening to the youtube you linked (part by part) as I have a moment to sit here and there.

<snip>

They''ll tell you the same thing about doctors and pharmacists as they do about cops: oh, they're just there for your own good, they just want to help solve all your ailments... Except that if they wanted to solve them, they'd do so already. Drug companies' jobs are NOT to CURE ANYTHING. Their jobs are to develop a drug that will keep your health problem under control just enough so you can live a somewhat normal life but still need to take the drug every day. If they cured anything, they'd have a lot less work and a lot less money coming in. They changed the definition of a disease to being something that only a drug can treat, cure, or prevent. So that means that it's illegal to make claims that anything other than a drug can do either of those things, regardless of whether or not it's true. It doesn't matter how much scientific data there is to back it up, the FDA will never allow you to make statements that are totally true because if people found out there was a natural cheap remedy for certain "diseases," they wouldn't go to the pharmacy to buy ridiculously expensive drugs.

What is this world coming to? Is there nothing more important to human beings than money and power? Why do people feel the need to impose their will on each other so much? Why can't we all just live peacefully and ignore each other if we can't agree on something? It seems like everybody wants as much money as they can possibly get, and most will stop at NOTHING to get it. They don't care who they trample and/or kill in the process, and no amount of money is ever enough. This world is very depressing sometimes, especially now that a comedic genius like George Carlin is no longer with us...

My husband and I have this conversation frequently. It's especially sad. My 5 year old was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes almost three years ago. Currently there is no cure. At this point she will be insulin dependent her entire life. As each year goes by her body destroys more and more of her beta cells (insulin making cells). Each year we do what we can to raise awareness and raise money (the jdrf really is an amazing organization) for a cure but deep down I know that big pharma isn't in the business of making cures. I'm hoping it could come through independent research but I'm not confident. My daughter is a pumper. She's hooked to an insulin pump 24/7, and isn't talking in nearly the amount of an insulin an adult would and the costs of her supplies every month (this is before insurance) is around $1600 and climbing. Now factor in the sheer number of insulin dependent diabetics (multiple injection therapy is cheaper, but you still pay out a ton for testing supplies) and it's not hard to see how much money pharma companies stand to lose if a cure is found. And don't get me wrong, I am immensely grateful for the technology we do have, and it's growing and getting better. Diabetics are gaining more and better control over their blood sugar, but even with the best control they've lost years at the end of their life. Even with the best control the ups and downs happen, and can be down right dangerous. That is their norm. I want better for all of them, and I want better for my daughter, it's sad knowing that may not happen in my lifetime, or hers for that matter because of money.

Bringing this back to e-cigs, I've always been the type of person that wanted to government out of what we choose to do with our bodies. Yes I smoke, have for years, and yes I realize how horrible it is. I've tried quitting, and have successfully for pregnancies and breastfeeding. I've always come back. I've had my e-cig for a week and I've gone from a PAD to maybe two cigs a day. Now I just need to find my morning and after dinner vape and I'll be set. In about two more weeks we will have saved as much as we've spent to get started (two kits, a couple of extra atomizers, drip tips, button covers, and a whole bunch of juice samples). Just cutting back as much as I have has me feeling better, so much better. My husband as well. It really is the first viable alternative I have seen. The FDA needs to stay out

 

[HappyHooligan]

Welcome to America.

To quote Bill Mahr.

"They don't want a drug-free America, they wan't an America free of the drugs that are their competition."

I think that sums up the entire deal about e-cigarettes in a nutshell.

Dr. V, I think I am going to have to steal this quote.

I could not agree more.

I am hoping eventually there will be enough pull from the ecig supporters, and independant investigation that the government will have to let it go, but I am sure that will not be until they have figured a way to get their piece of the action.

Hooligan

 

[LM1]

I really want to know is why the tobacco companies aren't all over the ecig business. The base crop is the same, isn't it? It's only a new delivery system, and the customers will last longer. I don't see much drawback other than retooling. There's probably a mint to be made here if they applied even a fraction of the effort they expend on analogs. Most of us would jump at an American made product. But no, they're acting like the RIAA and they're fighting with an old business model that is hurting them badly. Seems like it would be good for everyone if they got on board, so I don't get it.

 

[DocWyatt]

I really want to know is why the tobacco companies aren't all over the ecig business. The base crop is the same, isn't it? It's only a new delivery system, and the customers will last longer. I don't see much drawback other than retooling. There's probably a mint to be made here if they applied even a fraction of the effort they expend on analogs. Most of us would jump at an American made product. But no, they're acting like the RIAA and they're fighting with an old business model that is hurting them badly. Seems like it would be good for everyone if they got on board, so I don't get it.

Very simple - brands + regulation = market control = profit. There is no way to generate as much profit in ecigs - as the ecig business will always be very segmented. When you are thinking of "big tobacco" you are thinking the growers. They don't make squat.


Point being, the ecig business is not a viable option for "big tobacco", in my view, because there are little, if any, barriers to entry. Anyone can start an ecig business and compete directly against them if mainstream - UNLESS it became HIGHLY regulated where it became near impossible to do so....

 

[Willriker]

Very simple - brands = market control = profit. There is no way to generate as much profit in ecigs - as the ecig business will always be very segmented. When you are thinking of "big tobacco" you are thinking the growers. They don't make squat. It is in the brand. Try and get a smoker to switch from ML's to Camels. Not going to happen.

However, a customer could and easily would switch juices... there is no control/brand loyalty, therefore always will be low profit margins. The only companies that have high margins are the mass markets, BLU, etc. However, if this business became mainstream and customers became more educated those margins would rapidly disappear...

Point being, the ecig business is not a viable option for "big tobacco", in my view, because there are little, if any' barriers to entry. Anyone can start an ecig business and compete directly against them if mainstream UNLESS it became HIGHLY regulated where it became near impossible to do so....

I'm not so sure about this statement. I am pretty sure that, at some point, the same thing was said about beer and raw tobacco. I am rather certain that its all in marketing. And that with proper marketing the very same mentality a marlboro smoker has against camel cigarettes can be applied to the E-cig fluids.

In fact, when looking around, i already see the same type of brand loyalty with juice suppliers. Some people will consistantly recommend a particular supplier over another. Some will recommend vapor bomb, others will recommend Mrs. T's, and others will recommend Rocky Mountain Vapor. Take a look around. These people are rather consistant in which supplier they recommend. They may say to purchase a variety of flavors, but its always from only 1 vendor. Ok Ok MAYBE two vendors.

I see no differance strong enough to seperate how people feel about the fluid suppliers and how people felt about thier tobacco suppliers.

 

[AlDynamite]

I agree completely! E-cigs aren't the only example in this messed up scenario. The ban on green has created the scenario where otherwise law obiding citizens are forced to go underground into a potentially dangerous black market run mostly by gangsters to catch a little buzz after work. There are many examples, as previous posters have shown, of the complete backwardness of American laws and regulations. In my experience, the FDA, TSA, DHS (homeland security) cause more problems than they fix.

 

[DocWyatt]

Big difference. I edited it to be less confusing on the point as I was all over the map...lol.

Profit margins are largely dictated by "barrier to entry". If the barrier is extremely high - you will have less competition, therefore high margins.

However, if the barrier is very little, the margins will always be extremely low. Why? Competition will be fierce... This industry is somewhat of a commodity business... with some differences on product and service.

Think of it this way. Big Tobacco would have to compete against 10's of thousands of small companies in the ecig business. Where would margins go? To near zero. Therefore, this business is not a viable option...

Edit: Not a viable option - unless highly regulated to make it near impossible to enter the market. Why is there a huge barrier to entry in tobacco? Regulation and litigation. Therefore, they essentially compete in a monopoly market...which equals high margins...

 

[Petrodus]

There was a rumor going around some time ago about Big Tobacco trying to buy one or more of the E-cigarette manufacturing companies in China. This way they could have their cake and eat it to. Apparently they told Big Tobacco to look up and pull down on that shinny little handle (go flush yourself)

 

[kellogg]

This is only one example of what is wrong with this country. Until the public stands up to the politicians nothing will change. I hope everyone remembers this come next Tuesday and votes. If the newly elected don't follow the will of the people, then vote them out and try someone else. I know there are plenty of people out there who have common sense. We just need to find them.

The Harvard homeboys should not control our lives.

 

[Petrodus]

Kellogg wrote: I hope everyone remembers this come next Tuesday and votes. If the newly elected don't follow the will of the people, then vote them out

Over three-quarters of all federal laws are not created by the elected representatives of the people but by the "unelected heads of federal bureaucratic agencies".

FDA officials are "Appointed" and supported by the Congress because it's in their best financial interest.

The vote means nothing to the FDA because the powers to be in the FDA were Appointed.

Reference:
Secrets of the FDA: Suppressed Information
Jonathan W. Emord
Only attorney in history who has defeated the FDA 7 times
6 times on First Amendment grounds
Click Here

For the benefit of the 40% who didn't listen to part 2
I GUARANTEE part 2 will "Drop your Jaws
Click Here (part 2)

What would work is if we tell Congress to clean out the FDA and if they don't do it NOW then Everyone (Republican. Democrat, and Independent) the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly...will all be looking for a new job. Of course, that won't happen.

 

[kellogg]

Petrodus I would really like to see that happen.

 

[LM1]

I'm not so sure about this statement. I am pretty sure that, at some point, the same thing was said about beer and raw tobacco. I am rather certain that its all in marketing. And that with proper marketing the very same mentality a marlboro smoker has against camel cigarettes can be applied to the E-cig fluids.

This is exactly what I was thinking. At some point way back when, nothing was regulated. Slowly the revenuers took over alcohol, tobacco, etc. Geo Washington promoted hemp. More than a few of our Virgina forefathers probably grew both hemp and tobacco.

Pot needs to be regulated like tobacco and alcohol to prevent the kind of violence that the current black market causes, as well as provide some safety factors. Fortunately the e-cig market is a hell of a lot more peaceful to begin with.

E-cigs as an american regulated industry will be a pain for users in many ways, but the upshot for everyone else is the money stays here. Big Tobacco could be less afraid of overseas competition, have a better product to prop them up, and have less reason to lobby for limitations on it. Maybe get some real studies done about it too. I am pretty dang sure the health community would prefer the fallout of ecigs to analogs, and think of all that money it will save. I also figure at least we'd have american companies lying to us about liquids' content instead of overseas companies. It's highly unlikely we'd see odd contaminants like the melamine in dog food disaster or in baby forumula, or lead in toys. I doubt there's be any "accidental" contaminants like those in regulated american liquids anyway. I see very little downside to it, especially in this economy.