Re: Stonewalls/Arrivas - Effectiveness and Health side effects?

[Janner]

Anyone here either use only dissolvables like Stonewall and Arrivas every day? With no vaping, no snus, no analogs?

If so, were you able to kick cigs, snus, vaping just using the dissolvables?

And if anyone does use only dissolvables or mostly dissolvables, have you had any health issues like dental problems, mouth sores or stomach upset?

Have any "studies" been done on the effectiveness/safety of Stonewalls and Arrivas, e.g, are they as safe as Swedish snuff?

Here's why I'm asking - been a pack and a half a day smoker for 40 years now. Started vaping in March, 2011. For the first six weeks, the vaping was doing wonders for me - was down to only 3-6 cigs a day. Then, the love of my life took ill suddenly and died nine days later. I went right back on the cigarettes full time because the vaping just wasn't helping me to deal with the grief. After about a month and a half back on chain smoking, I had to get back on the vaping because my lungs were about to cough out of my body. But and I'm sure this has to do with the fact that I'm still at a loss, personally, I just can't get back to mostly vaping. On a good day, I do about half vaping and half smoking. Most days, it's more smoking than vaping.

Thing is, the more I do vape, the more my stomach is killing me. I cut down from 24mg liquids down to 18mg and now even those are ripping my stomach to shreds. And in a way I never got from just smoking.

I already have dental problems (TMJ, receding gums, dry mouth, already have lost several teeth, etc.) so am a little reluctant to try Snus after reading about all the dental sores, gum dryness from the salt reactions, etc., that most people seem to get, even if just occasionally. I am NOT worried about getting mouth cancer from Snus, I believe the studies the Swedish government has done about the safety of the product. But I have already had a lifetime of dental problems and I really don't relish inflicting even more damage to my mouth (although I realize the cigarettes themselves are causing a lot of my existing problems as is).

Personally, I don't even think it's the nicotine that I need - if it was, then the patches, gums, lozenges, vaping would do it for me. But they don't. I'm sure what I really need is the WTA's and wish the hell someone would make a pill, gum, whatever, that had only the WTA's in them. Until that day, I need something that has WTA in it.

I can get the Stonewalls at my local smoke shop (no Arrivas though). Should I just give it a try and see if they work for me? If I could get some Swedish Snus locally, I would pick up a can and give it a try. But the shipping costs to order some snus don't make it cost-worthy to buy just one can and frankly, after all the money I've blown on vaping equipment and liquids, I'm a little leery of ordering a whole bunch of snus, before I even know if I like it, much less do well with it physically.

Thanks, any help would be appreciated!
Jan

 

[Stubby]

First thought that comes to mind is with the oral issues with snus. Snus is in fact far less damaging to your teeth and gums then smoking. I really don't know where you are getting your information about oral problems with snus as I have heard of almost none. Many people who switch to snus find there gums improve. It certainly won't get any worse. I fold my snus, meaning that I fold it in half length wise as this keeps the portion away from the gum line. I'm not at all sure this is necessary but I have had gum problems in the past before I started using snus so it's just a precautionary measure on my part.

I don't know of anyone here that uses stonewalls exclusively. I use them but normally just one a day, or at most two. Its kind of a nice break from the snus as its sweet instead of the saltiness of Swedish snus. One thing you should keep in mind is that I have found the stonewalls to be a bit weak in the nicotine compared to even the standard strength snus. I would have a hard time using just stonewalls. But, if you have them available locally it's not going to hurt to give 'em a try. You may also be able to get Swedish snus locally but at the moment I am very busy and don't have access to my main computer so can't check it out for you. If know one else chimes in I will try and check it out later on what is available in NC.

It's not at all uncommon for people to go back to, or increase there smoking when a crises comes up. That's the real test as to if something is working or not. The last thing most of us need in a crises is the pure stimulating effect of nicotine without the calming effect of the minor alkaloids. It's completely understandable that you went back to smoking with a vengeance. Especially since you hadn't given up smoking completely to begin with.

 

[Janner]

Thanks, Stubby, for your insights. I am going to pick up some Stonewalls this week and give them a try. Maybe they'll help me cut out the cigs while I still vape. I definitely need the WTA's when I get stressed out, the nicotine alone does not do it for me. And I know how I am, after all the family and friends I've buried all these years, I need a complete change of scenery. It's just too hard for me to move on while I'm still looking at these same four walls that we shared together for the last 12 years. To help me on that end of things, I am hoping to move sometime this year.

Never having tried snus at all, I don't get the folding thing tip right now, but it's also good to know there's ways to manipulate the snus so it's less in contact with your gums.

I'm glad to hear that the gum trouble you had in the past actually got better on the Snus. That's very reassuring to me.

But I've been reading this smokeless forum and I have read accounts of people getting mouth sores in the spots where they keep their snus (and yes, I realize that they do go away) and one person whose dentist diagnosed his sore as some disorder that begins with an "l" I think (sorry, my mind isn't what it used to be - senior moments all day long now) and I saw a photo either here or on the SnusOn forum of someone's upper gum that was pretty nasty looking (to me anyway) from the salt.

What you have to understand is that my philosophy about my teeth is that they are out to kill me! I've had so many problems with them my whole life, so I get a little freaked out with anything mouth related! But you are right, the cigarettes are causing a lot of the problems I had in the past and still have now. They have to go and I am trying so hard to get off them, but I'm just not succeeding.

If anyone here does know of any shops in my area (Triad, NC) that does sell any kind of Swedish snus, I'd really appreciate that info. Or even on-line shops that would ship without charging more than a can of Snus itself costs.

My other reluctance to try Snus is that I am finding it overwhelming trying to figure out what strengths, flavors, portions, et al to try. I have wasted so much money on e-liquid that either tastes like nothing or tastes like incense/perfume and I am reluctant to go through that again with the snus.

If anyone who also vaped can relate, I like a sweet tobacco - started out with RY4, loved it until I ended up back on the cigs, then when I took up vaping again, it had no taste to me. Am currently mixing Marlboro liquid with either cream soda or root beer liquid (yes, I like it that sweet!) and also like Virginia Flue Cured - although after a day of vaping that, I can't taste it anymore and have to switch to something else for a day so the flavor comes back. So I think I would like a sweet tobacco snus. Any suggestions there?

Thanks for your reassurance, Stubby!
Regards,
Jan

 

[hittman]

I've been using snus for over two years and haven't had any of the problems that you mentioned. I remember that Dvap did some research on the stonewalls and found that they had small amounts of WTA's. If you like sweets so much, maybe you should try the camel or marlboro snus. I don't think it has as much nic in it as some of the swedish ones but it sure is sweet. The camel frost tasted like candy to me. It's been a long time since I've had it but remember it being very sweet. I used swedish snus while having braces on and was going to the dentist for cleanings every three months and got compliment after compliment about how much better my gums and teeth looked since I wasn't smoking. I've been hanging around the smokeless forum for a couple years and don't remember seeing anyone postiing about mouth sores or anything. There were one or two that were using dip that had some problems.

 

[Stubby]

This is the general site

Log On

You have to register then you can find out where to get general snus in your area. I checked and there are lots of places in NC. The general line normally includes General white, regular, mint and wintergreen.

 

[Janner]

Thanks Stubby, for the General site info.

And thanks, Hittman, for the info that your gums also are in better shape, since you started the Snus.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, it's been one of those weeks!

I did pick up a pack of Java Stonewalls, cut one in half and parked it in my front lower gum area. It was sweeter than I actually care for, so maybe I don't need such a sweet snus after all. It took almost 2 hours to dissolve completely and I was dying for a cigarette for about the last half an hour in was in my mouth. And I smoked one, as soon as the Stonewall was finally gone.

I didn't move it around in my mouth at all but even so, a couple of times I guess my saliva built up a bit more than usual and when that happened and I swallowed, my throat felt a little burnt. And when the tablet was finally gone, the skin (but not my gum) where the tablet had been parked was a little burnt feeling as well. That sensation went away after a couple of hours, fortunately.

So I am either super sensitive and/or I need to move the tablet around a bit and/or need to build up some tolerance. I have to say that based on that one Stonewall, I am not nuts about them. But will still get some snus and give it a try.

Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Jan

 

[hittman]

I know they say to leave the stonewalls in one place but I move it around like a tic tac and its gone in a much shorter time.

 

[Stubby]

I move the stonewall around a bit also, but sometimes I just forget and leave it in one place. It takes quite awhile to dissolve that way.

I to have found the stonewalls weak on the nicotine. I snus all day (with a bit of WTA or regular e-liquid) so I don't fall into a nicotine deficit. For me it's just a nice dessert type break.

I remember all to well the first time I used snus, which was a camel frosted. I actually got a blister where the snus was sitting. It healed up in short order, but I bring it up to point out that there is a bit of an adjustment when using any type of oral tobacco. It can take a little while for the gums to adjust.

 

[Janner]

Thanks, Stubby, for the tip on moving the Stonewalls around and for letting me know that the first time you used snus you got a blister. I knew I had read of people saying they got sores from it. And yes, I know that they heal up.

I get it now that it's something you just need to get used to.

I just tried my first piece of snus - sent to me by a friend on the forums here - an Offroad White Mini.

The mint is burning the heck out of my gum! I moved it to another spot and then it started burning there as well. Had to take it out.

Think it's the mint, not the salt or the tobacco or the pouch itself. I'm not much of a mint fan, so I'm not surprised. Like Lifesavers mint flavors are too much for my mouth as well. I can only suck on them for about a minute, then I have to take them out.

I took a big swig of water to try to cut the burning and the portion got good and wet and I swallowed a mouthful of what I'd call "liquid" tobacco - that wasn't unpleasant at all, so that was great.

So I intend to try some more snus, as long as it's not mint! And yes, I know from reading here, that as you go along in your snus adventures, to revisit old snus that you initially hated - that you may come to love it later on. So I will revisit the mint snus after a while.

Thanks,
Janner

UPDATE: Put the Offroad mini mint back in my mouth - moved it off to the top side - much less burning there and then the slight salt taste started to come through.

This is great, I am really enjoying it. Feeling very calm. Thanks for the help! I think this is going to work for me!

 

[Skrymr]

You might also want to stay away from the "white" portions. Regular portions are not dry like white portions are. White portions bother my mouth. I usually fluff them up and wet them with saliva before putting them in place. With regular portions, I can just place them in my mouth without fluffing or wetting.

 

[dodari]

In the Albuquerque, NM area does anyone know where to get the Stonewall products? Where are they commonly carried?

Thanks

 

[hittman]

Rite Aid used to carry them but I don't know if there are any where you live. I used to order them from lilbrown.com

 

[dodari]

No Rite Aid here, but did contact lilbrown in Yakima.

Thanks

 

[hittman]

Glad I could help.

 

[dodari]

I actually found a reliable source for the Stonewalls close to Albuquerque. The place, a tobacco shop, is called White Buffalo, it's on the Isleta Pueblo (Reservation). The phone number is: 505-869-2121, You need to talk to Mary, who does the ordering. The cost has been around 20 to 25 dollars for a box(5 smaller boxes inside, of 20 Stonewalls each) . I get them at a much reduced price as I am an enrolled(have BIA number) Lakota, but anyway the Stonewalls have been a big help in reducing my analog mania. For me mornings are nic-fit hell.

Been trying to get her to order the Swedish snus, so far no go. They do have the regular American brands of snus. I want to get on to the Swedish sourced snus however. As Stubby and someone else mentioned the Stonewalls are ok but not particularly strong. They do help some though.

I asked her if they could mail out of state, she thought so but wasn't sure. Not a lot of for sure help there.

 

[hittman]

Getsnus and northerner were offering free shipping. It might still be going on today.

 

[dodari]

Getsnus and northerner were offering free shipping. It might still be going on today.

Thanks for the sources. Actually I'd like some advice on where to start with Swedish Snus. Looks like "General" brand maybe? I'd like just plain tobacco flavor, no menthol or other, I have very little experience in the snus area other than some Camel stuff which was like candy-ish or whatever, didn't care for it really. I guess I'm saying I have rather bland plain tastes. My taste buds are pretty shot, I guess.

The Stonewall regulars have been ok, maybe a bit weak. They do help some though.

I bookmarked the above suppliers you referenced, it's just I get in there and there is a whole gob of choices and I scarcely know where to start.

Thanks.

 

[hittman]

The general regular has bergamot in it. If you want a really plain tobacco then I like the lab 01 and 02 for a plain tobacco. Just a heads up, swedish snus will taste a little salty for the first week or two until you get used to it. I didn't much care for it but some people like the ettan also.

 

[Stubby]

For straight tobacco I would suggest Ettan, Grovsnus, Tre Ankare, 01, and if you are on a budget Oden's original and Offroad original. Another one is Skruf but you would have to order that from snuscentral as Northerner doesn't carry it. A few of these as in Skruf and Offroad can have a bit of bergamot but its pretty mild. I like a bit of citrus at times as it goes very well with tobacco flavors.

Prima Fint is another very good snus but it is loose only. I could also suggest Roda Lacket. It has a bit of dried fruit flavor in the background but the main flavor is tobacco. It uses the same base as Prima Fint. Its better in loose form then portions but the portions are worth a try.

I use tobacco flavored snus or tobacco with bergamot for the bulk of my snus use. I occasionally have a mint or some other flavored snus but my mainstay is the traditional snus.

 

[hittman]

Where have you been stubby? I haven't seen you on the forum in a while. Or have I just not been hanging out in the right places?