Regarding ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube Mods

[pumasforpets]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ecf-safety-specification-metal-tube-mods.html

If manufacturers do not implement these features, we will, at some point in time, begin to refer to those products as dangerous and to be avoided. Therefore, there will be a marketing advantage to having the safety features.

I would strongly advise thorough consideration of this specific comment in the ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube mods post. Making disparaging remarks about a product using ECF's own guidelines as a basis could easily be taken as an act of libel against a particular company without sufficient proof that what ECF Staff are stating is undeniably true. Unless the person(s) making the statement that a device is "dangerous" is a recognized expert in the subject matter and/or is able to cite peer reviewed research that indicates the statement to be true, making a disparaging remark about a product opens ECF up to potential legal trouble. There would be significant merit as ECF is neither a governing body nor a coalition of experts in the fields of study related to these devices and would technically qualify as a business making disparaging remarks against one company at the benefit of others including, potentially, ECF itself.

I would also suggest updating the post to include the qualifications of those who developed these guidelines as well as factual justification for the reasons behind these exact specifications. Otherwise, they seem arbitrary and without the backing of verifiable expertise and data.

 

[Rocketman]

Separate the mods into safe and unsafe in the vendors forum.

The consumer is the one that matters here.

The ones selling unsafe and even counterfeit products need to called out.

 

[pumasforpets]

Separate the mods into safe and unsafe in the vendors forum.

The consumer is the one that matters here.

The ones selling unsafe and even counterfeit products need to called out.

My point is safe or unsafe according to whom? What verifiable data or expertise does ECF have standing behind these guidelines that would allow them to classify something as safe or unsafe? What specific testing has been done that shows that these exact specifications are sufficient to certify a device as safe?

I had not thought about it, but there is another legal issue here. Should a device that conforms to ECF guidelines cause personal injury, the user may be able to pursue damages from ECF because they have stated, with authority, that the device was "safe".


Under no circumstances am I insinuating that safety is not paramount. However, I would caution ECF to tread lightly in making this forum into a self declared governing body of the e-cig industry.

 

[Rocketman]

Strange pet guy,
))

The vendors volunteer to post here (and pay for that as well).
I agree that "safe" might be misleading, but "unsafe" seems like something that would be beneficial to the average vaping customer. How do you drive vendors to make their products safer in a volunteer, unregulated market?

ECF is probably the best qualified (collective knowledge) group of people to make judgments about the safety of the products presented here.

A defacto expert source of information related to vaping

 

[pumasforpets]

Strange pet guy,
))

The vendors volunteer to post here (and pay for that as well).
I agree that "safe" might be misleading, but "unsafe" seems like something that would be beneficial to the average vaping customer. How do you drive vendors to make their products safer in a volunteer, unregulated market?

ECF is probably the best qualified (collective knowledge) group of people to make judgments about the safety of the products presented here.

A defacto expert source of information related to vaping

That seems to be another issue entirely. Vendors will essentially be paying for ECF to tell their potential customers not to buy their devices. There's not a single mod that I can think of right now that conforms to these guidelines. Perhaps that is a bad thing (of course, that hinges on whether or not these guidelines can be proven to have verifiable merit).

Perhaps a note that indicates that a particular device does not conform to the specification and nothing more would skirt around potential legal trouble.

ECF is the best possible database of educated opinion but certainly not for verified data and research on this particular topic...since there really is none. On the one hand, you have ECF members lambasting the FDA for wanting to regulate e-cigs based on a lack of data and research and on the other hand, you have members praising ECF for wanting to "regulate" specific mod designs....also based on a lack of data and research. That's kinda what I'm getting at.

 

[inanitydefined]

I agree, this is trouble for ecf. I read earlier that one vendor has seen a massive drop in his sales since this was posted. This is a well respected vendor with a clean track record. He would be completely within his rights to pursue ecf for damages. If you chose to be a sanctioning body you'd better be damn sure what you're talking about and you should also be prepared for any ramifications
Off topic: karmachine is that the backtrack logo in your sig?

 

[tj99959]

The problem I see is that "guidelines" tend to take on a life of their own and outlive their usefulness. Battery technology will continue to evolve making these guidelines a hindrance to the evolution of the e-cig.

Personal opinion of course, but I would much rather see the bottom cap of my mod launched into space than have those gasses released directly into my hand.
(just pointing out that there is more than on way to pluck a chicken)

 

[Rocketman]

You really have to bookmark the safety stuff because it keeps getting updated.
Here's something I don't think was in there yesterday:

An isolated 2-wire circuit
Best practice electrical design specifies that circuits should consist of two insulated poles, and that a machine's external casing should not be used as the negative return path.

This means both sides of the circuit should be run in insulated cables, and isolated from the device body. This is a universal requirement for best-practice design & build. It is more than likely that the higher incidence of metal tube mod events against those in boxmods is due to the battery shorting to earth (negative). This cannot happen in a plastic or wooden device such as a boxmod; or in one where both poles are isolated.


Universal? As in the automotive industry for electrical power transmission? Grounds leads are used for sensor circuits but various parts of the chassis are used for power devices like headlights.

This will get interesting as new requirements are added


Sounds like someone has insider info on a new plastic tube mod coming out soon

 

[pumasforpets]

So let me get this straight...ECF wants to completely eliminate fully mechanical mods? I know it's not in the "required" list, but I think the "slippery slope" was already mentioned here.

I still would like to see the credentials of those devising these guidelines and the data or testing that they are based upon. Again, it all seems extremely arbitrary without anything to back it up.

 

[pumasforpets]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/announcements-rules/255780-ecf-suppliers-terms-service.html

28. Recognise the fact that we are partners, therefore never post negative material about us - we don't post negative material about you and we try to prevent others doing so. If you have issues you must discuss them with admin first. We will always try to provide you with the best facilities we can, and intend to improve our facilities for you over time. Please remember loyalty.


It would appear that the Suppliers Terms of Service will also need to be modified.

 

[Rocketman]

I wonder what e-cigs various members of the ECF staff use.


I know some of them really like the Darwin.

 

[Stubby]

ECF is the best possible database of educated opinion but certainly not for verified data and research on this particular topic...since there really is none. On the one hand, you have ECF members lambasting the FDA for wanting to regulate e-cigs based on a lack of data and research and on the other hand, you have members praising ECF for wanting to "regulate" specific mod designs....also based on a lack of data and research. That's kinda what I'm getting at.

Actually there is a lot of data on how to use lithium batteries in a safer way (it will never be 100% safe). Simple because the data is not directly linked to electronic cigarettes means nothing. Everything that is already known can be easily applied as there are established safe practices that work.

You are avoiding the issue at hand, and that is that there are many moders that are selling electronic cigarettes that are without a doubt unsafe to use by anybody except very experience individuals who have full knowledge of what they are doing, and what they are getting. Unfortunately thats not how they are being sold. They are sold on the open market to anyone with the money, no questions ask. That is not only risky for the unknowing person who buys it, but also for the whole vaping community. It's because of that type of irresponsible behavior by sellers that has brought us to this point.

So let me get this straight...ECF wants to completely eliminate fully mechanical mods? I know it's not in the "required" list, but I think the "slippery slope" was already mentioned here.

Mechanical mods are simple not a good idea when it comes to safety. The fact that there is no timed cut off on the switch as they can be held down indefinitely, with very bad results, is bad enough. That alone is reason enough to stay away from them. You also cannot add other electronic safety cut offs for things like a short circuit, thermal overload, etc. If things begin to go wrong there is no way to shut it down. The mod is completely dependent on the spring melting and cutting the circuit. That is not in any way the safest way of doing things. I'm not even an electrical engineer, but I cringed the first time I saw someone selling a mechanical mod thinking of all the things that can go wrong. Its long past due to get over the romantic idea on the wonders of mechanical mods.

Hopefully they will go the way of the passenger pigeon.

 

[dragonlover]

So are you saying that a Reo is unsafe as well? I'm sorry but I've had mine for months and never had a problem!

 

[pumasforpets]

Actually there is a lot of data on how to use lithium batteries in a safer way (it will never be 100% safe). Simple because the data is not directly linked to electronic cigarettes means nothing. Everything that is already known can be easily applied as there are established safe practices that work.

And yet none of that data is cited in the ECF specs. Nor are the qualifications of those who devised the specs.

You are avoiding the issue at hand, and that is that there are many moders that are selling electronic cigarettes that are without a doubt unsafe to use by anybody except very experience individuals who have full knowledge of what they are doing, and what they are getting. Unfortunately thats not how they are being sold. They are sold on the open market to anyone with the money, no questions ask. That is not only risky for the unknowing person who buys it, but also for the whole vaping community. It's because of that type of irresponsible behavior by sellers that has brought us to this point.

Do you hold no value in personal responsibility? I don't know about you, but I don't really need mommy dearest to hold my hand while I cross the street. I don't personally think that having a keg of gunpowder in my house is particularly safe...so I don't have one. But does that mean I need to arbitrarily post up some gun powder keg design specifications and demand that manufacturers follow them lest I drag their names through the mud? If consumers stopped buying things they thought to be unsafe (aka taking responsibility for their own actions...crazy concept that it is), then those modders who sell the worst of the bunch would change or go out of business. But again, I guess that does hinge on there being limits to human stupidity and the jury is out on that one.

I ride motocross. It is dangerous. Motocross bikes have gotten bigger and faster over the years. There are really no safety features on a dirtbike. Yet they are purchased in the hundreds of thousands per year. So how do manufacturers deal with this? Shouldn't they be working on a full restraint system with airbags and crumple zones? No. You use their product at your own risk. If you personally are incapable of using your own judgement to limit your risks, you shouldn't be buying a dirtbike and the manufacturer will not be held responsible for your lack of sense. A dirtbike can be ridden naked or with $10,000 worth of personal protection gear strapped to your body. YOU choose how safe YOU think you need to be. ECF's guidelines eliminate choice and attempt to regulate the industry which they have NO authority to do.

Mechanical mods are simple not a good idea when it comes to safety. The fact that there is no timed cut off on the switch as they can be held down indefinitely, with very bad results, is bad enough. That alone is reason enough to stay away from them. You also cannot add other electronic safety cut offs for things like a short circuit, thermal overload, etc. If things begin to go wrong there is no way to shut it down. The mod is completely dependent on the spring melting and cutting the circuit. That is not in any way the safest way of doing things. I'm not even an electrical engineer, but I cringed the first time I saw someone selling a mechanical mod thinking of all the things that can go wrong. Its long past due to get over the romantic idea on the wonders of mechanical mods.

Hopefully they will go the way of the passenger pigeon.

One of the most common causes of an electrical short is a WIRE defect. Mechanical mods have no wires to break. They aren't idiot proof if that's what you're getting at. Also, you absolutely can add other safety cutoffs now that The Kick by Evolv has been released. But that should be left up to the user to protect themselves if they feel they cannot use a device properly. Advanced Personal Vaporizers. Advanced being the key term.

The most beautiful and best performing mods on the planet are mechanical...they won't be going anywhere. Well, they will be staying the hell away from ECF I would imagine. Possibly go somewhere that has users with some common sense and personal responsibility like some of the country specific forums, vaporwall, etc.

Many of them are works of art. I'm glad human kind had not been so pussified in Rembrandt's time. I can just imagine the outcry that he failed to use lead free, non toxic, non flammable, organic, gluten free, vegan, renewable resource paint

 

[Stubby]

Do you hold no value in personal responsibility? I don't know about you, but I don't really need mommy dearest to hold my hand while I cross the street. I don't personally think that having a keg of gunpowder in my house is particularly safe...so I don't have one. But does that mean I need to arbitrarily post up some gun powder keg design specifications and demand that manufacturers follow them lest I drag their names through the mud? If consumers stopped buying things they thought to be unsafe (aka taking responsibility for their own actions...crazy concept that it is), then those modders who sell the worst of the bunch would change or go out of business. But again, I guess that does hinge on there being limits to human stupidity and the jury is out on that one.

I

And where does the responsibility of the manufactures start. Your comparison to motor bikes is off the wall. People know when they ride a motor bike that it is dangerous and act accordingly. People don't know that the mods they are buying are not up to speed when it comes to safety. You simple can't compare a motor bike to an electronic cigarette, and its insane to do so.

One of the most common causes of an electrical short is a WIRE defect. Mechanical mods have no wires to break. They aren't idiot proof if that's what you're getting at. Also, you absolutely can add other safety cutoffs now that The Kick by Evolv has been released. But that should be left up to the user to protect themselves if they feel they cannot use a device properly. Advanced Personal Vaporizers. Advanced being the key term.

The most beautiful and best performing mods on the planet are mechanical...they won't be going anywhere. Well, they will be staying the hell away from ECF I would imagine. Possibly go somewhere that has users with some common sense and personal responsibility like some of the country specific forums, vaporwall, etc.

Many of them are works of art. I'm glad human kind had not been so pussified in Rembrandt's time. I can just imagine the outcry that he failed to use lead free, non toxic, non flammable, organic, gluten free, vegan, renewable resource paint

I own a few mechanical watches and of course they are completely safe. But then they don't have a battery in them that is capable of venting and catching fire. If they did I would expect them to have every safety feature available designed into it. Mechanical devices have their place, but it is not in a device using a large lithium battery. There is no way you can make them as safe as something with electrical switches.

The mechanical mods may have been okay a few years ago when the e-cig industry was a small tight knit group, but it has gone well beyond that today. These things are being sold on a population level so need to be engineered to be sold as such. If the manufacture cannot be responsible to ensure that everyone they sell them to has a complete understanding of what they are getting, and that really can't be done on a population level, then they have no business selling them. Electronic cigarettes need to be engineered by professionals who know what they're doing, not in someones basement. Those days are over.

Edit: No one is trying to ban mechanical mods or anything else. As far as I can tell ECF is simple trying to educate the public that some mods are safer then others based on well established protocols. The public, which really can't be expected to be well educated on the safety issues of electronic cigarettes,certainly has a right to know that some mods are safer then others.

 

[tj99959]

Mechanical mods are simple not a good idea when it comes to safety. The fact that there is no timed cut off on the switch as they can be held down indefinitely, with very bad results, is bad enough. That alone is reason enough to stay away from them. You also cannot add other electronic safety cut offs for things like a short circuit, thermal overload, etc. If things begin to go wrong there is no way to shut it down. The mod is completely dependent on the spring melting and cutting the circuit. That is not in any way the safest way of doing things. I'm not even an electrical engineer, but I cringed the first time I saw someone selling a mechanical mod thinking of all the things that can go wrong. Its long past due to get over the romantic idea on the wonders of mechanical mods.

Hopefully they will go the way of the passenger pigeon.

I beg to differ, guess you have never seen a Precise or a Don with their fully mechanical lock outs or a Kick to put in them with all the protection between the atty/carto and the battery that you would ever want.
Yes mods can be made safer, but the problem will still be the battery ... not what the battery is in.

Keep up with all these guidelines and we will be left only with this

 

[Rocketman]

You have the positive end of the battery pointed at your face

 

[pumasforpets]

I beg to differ, guess you have never seen a Precise or a Don with their fully mechanical lock outs or a Kick to put in them with all the protection between the atty/carto and the battery that you would ever want.
Yes mods can be made safer, but the problem will still be the battery ... not what the battery is in.

Keep up with all these guidelines and we will be left only with this

And there is a mechanical mod currently in development that has absolutely no ground...unless you want it to. The batt can't ground to the body due to anodizing and a carbon fiber sleeve which are both non-conductive. It can also be retrofitted with The Kick for additional protection and the CF tube is easy enough to mill with common tools if the user wants it. Or maybe not, since then a dust mask would have to be included in the kit and a safety specification detailing the hazards of dust particles...

If you've ever read an order page for a mechanical mod you will have seen just how many times manufacturers warn about the batteries. Every one I've bought calls for ONLY AW Protected or IMR, or LiFePo4 (though most don't suggest that due to lower voltage). If people can't follow simple directions, then they shouldn't be buying the PV...plain and simple.

 

[pumasforpets]

And where does the responsibility of the manufactures start. Your comparison to motor bikes is off the wall. People know when they ride a motor bike that it is dangerous and act accordingly. People don't know that the mods they are buying are not up to speed when it comes to safety. You simple can't compare a motor bike to an electronic cigarette, and its insane to do so.




I own a few mechanical watches and of course they are completely safe. But then they don't have a battery in them that is capable of venting and catching fire. If they did I would expect them to have every safety feature available designed into it. Mechanical devices have their place, but it is not in a device using a large lithium battery. There is no way you can make them as safe as something with electrical switches.

The mechanical mods may have been okay a few years ago when the e-cig industry was a small tight knit group, but it has gone well beyond that today. These things are being sold on a population level so need to be engineered to be sold as such. If the manufacture cannot be responsible to ensure that everyone they sell them to has a complete understanding of what they are getting, and that really can't be done on a population level, then they have no business selling them. Electronic cigarettes need to be engineered by professionals who know what they're doing, not in someones basement. Those days are over.

Edit: No one is trying to ban mechanical mods or anything else. As far as I can tell ECF is simple trying to educate the public that some mods are safer then others based on well established protocols. The public, which really can't be expected to be well educated on the safety issues of electronic cigarettes,certainly has a right to know that some mods are safer then others.

Where ever the market demands it starts. ECF is not the market. ECF is not qualified to make such demands.

Fine, but I'm gonna stick in the realm of motocross and move to something that everyone expects to be safe but can actually cause worse injury than what it's designed to prevent. Knee braces. They are designed to protect ligament damage in the knee which is great...but they transfer the load path to the femur and can cause catastrophic compound fractures. Should the AMA be demanding that knee brace manufacturers now provide upper leg support? Then the load transfers to the hip or lower leg. So then they demand hip and lower leg support and the load transfers to the spine etc etc.

The same with PVs. You can stick with the eGo (which, btw, is an unprotected battery with a tiny piece of Chinese circuitry as the only thing standing between you and explosion...and we all know Chinese QC is absolutely top notch) or you can choose a higher performance PV, but you take the risk yourself in using it. No one is forcing you to buy a metal tube mod. If the ECF Specs are what you think are absolutely required despite the complete lack of evidence, then buy a PV that complies with those specs. If you are an advanced user, then buy an APV. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop expecting the world to protect you from yourself.


You can't expect engineers to idiotproof the entire world. At some point, you have to let Darwin be right.


As to the edit: The ECF community holds a strong resemblance to a flock of sheep...they follow. Unfortunately, it's also the biggest market for e-cig sales. In essence, ECF calling a mod "dangerous" is in effect killing it. With this 1 post, ECF will have effectively dictated the exact design of EVERY tube mod maker who has any desire to be successful.

With that kind of power, they DAMN WELL better be backing it up with transparent data, tests, and qualifications.

 

[cw37013]

So are you saying that a Reo is unsafe as well? I'm sorry but I've had mine for months and never had a problem!

Yeah, what about our Reo's and Reo Mini's? I have one and I love it!! I couldn't imagine living without my Reo mini!!