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Removal of sugars from fruit extracts?

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by apache1649, Nov 1, 2015.

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  1. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    I want to produce all natural flavorings using extracts from organic fruits, but the sugars found in fruit extracts are harmful when heated to the same temperature as eliquid. I've been searching the internet for about a week now, but still can't find anything newer than a year ago to separate the sugars from the extracts. Does anyone have more recent information? As of last year, the only options were to use essential oils from the fruit, which only produced very limited flavor, or to spin the sugars out in a centrifuge, which is absurdly expensive. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    - Nick
     
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  2. sonicdsl

    sonicdsl Admin
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    Aug 11, 2011
  3. Rabbit Slayer

    Rabbit Slayer Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    May 19, 2015
    Scottsdale, AZ
    How about letting the people that know what they are doing make the flavorings

    natural doesn't mean better/safer
     
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  4. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    How about being helpful and supportive? Obviously I wouldn't try to market a product without making sure it was safe, but I do hope to establish a line of quality eliquid one day and so I came to a place where I know I can find knowledgeable people to offer good advice to start on my way to that goal. If I wasn't worried about safety, I wouldn't bother trying to remove the sugars. I'm just getting started into my research on this, and I figured it may take a while to find an answer to this so I posted it so I can continue my research on other things while this thread is developing. If everyone just left things to someone else, nobody would be successful and nobody would know anything. If it comes down to it, I'll save up and buy a viable centrifuge for the application.
     
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  5. Nermal

    Nermal Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 8, 2013
    Farmington, NM USA
    Well, I think rabbit slayer was being helpful. Natural sugars and natural oils would be bad advice.
     
  6. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    That's why I'm trying to remove them. The sugars would be waste material, leaving behind non-toxic flavorings. Every company that uses natural flavorings is doing it, but most likely with a centrifuge. I, however, am not currently in a position to buy a centrifuge capable of this and if I need to, that would be a serious investment for me. If there is a way to do it without one and still achieve good results, I figure someone on the forum either has heard about it or may know someone who has.
     
  7. dannyv45

    dannyv45 ECF DIY E-Liquid Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 12, 2013
    New Jersey
    It's an interesting topic but I haven't actually seen any real discussion on fruit extraction on ECF so I don't think you'll find much help on that topic here. Most here that do extract do tobaccos, teas, coffee and some herb extracts. I wish you the best of luck though and if you do find anything or decide to experiment please keep us posted in your progress.

    Now with that said I did a quick google search and came up with this. Not sure if this is what your after but here it is.

    Take the material, fruit and/or peel and place in a blender. make sure the juices cannot seep out of the blender.

    Blend until homogeneous and no small chunks can be found in the blender bowl.

    In a 600ml beaker, place about 10g of material from blender bowl.

    Warm 150 - 200 mL of water to 60°C and place into the 600mL beaker containing the fruit. Stir with a stir bar if available for 15 minutes making sure that the liquid does not splash over the top of the beaker.

    This effectively extracts the sugars (fructose, glucose, sucrose) into the water (aqueous) solvent.

    You can then filter off the mash from the solution and crystallise the sugars from the solution.

    To do this manually you would need to mash up the fruit by hand.

    You can play around with the quantities if you want more or less sugar solution. eg 40 g of pulp to about 500mL of warm water.

    To crystallise the sugar you warm the solution in a dish over a pan of boiling water (in the lab. use an evaporating dish on a large beaker of boiling water.)
     
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  8. dannyv45

    dannyv45 ECF DIY E-Liquid Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 12, 2013
    New Jersey

    I think his question is legit and more power to the OP if they want to take on such an undertaking. I think it would be valuable information for all of us. I don't think this type of endeavor should be discouraged. So if we can't help we should at least encourage.
     
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  9. Exchaner

    Exchaner Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 29, 2013
    California
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  10. Rabbit Slayer

    Rabbit Slayer Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    May 19, 2015
    Scottsdale, AZ
    If and when I see a site offering organic this or all natural that, I run away as fast as I can
    Maybe it is perfectly safe vaping fruit juice extracts, but until I hear that it is, I am not going to use it nor am I going to encourage others to use it or attempt to make it
     
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  11. 1vapeatatime

    1vapeatatime Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 29, 2012
    Nevada
    More power to Apache1649. I extract a lot of flavors from tobacco, tea, and some kitchen spices....because that's what interests me. I would love to learn the process of what Apache1649 is asking.
    If we all "let the people who know what their doing....etc,etc,etc" then there really wouldn't be a need for us to DIY. We'd just be assembling juices like Lego bocks.
    Sorry, but even though I have no answers for Apache1649 I wish him luck, so that one day he may be able to help us as well.
     
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  12. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    Thanks for the support guys. Danny, I'll see what the average sugar content of the fruit I'm using is and try that method, and probably triple process the fruit using that procedure, then make the extract from the remaining fruit mash and run it through some filters per Exchaner's tip and post the results here, might be a little while before I have the filters. Anyone know of any chemicals that react with most natural sugars? I'll use some of the extract as a reagent with it to make sure there's at least a low enough content for it to not react before adding it to juice to test the flavor when vaporized.
     
  13. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    Just to clarify, I will not be adding the extract tested with a chemical, just using that to verify the quality of the rest of the batch.
     
  14. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    Also, I said I would check the average sugar content because I will then compare the amount of sugar removed from the mash to get an initial idea as to the effectiveness of the process
     
  15. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
  16. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    Also currently researching aroma compounds naturally produced by fruit that create flavors and not just fragrances, to ensure they are not as large or larger than the sugars. Mechanical filtration may remove them along with the sugars if they are. Will also be checking the solubility of each in water.
     
  17. sketchness

    sketchness Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 3, 2014
    Sacramento, CA
    Just thinking out loud this seems to call for some 100+ proof vodka and distilling it again after a long mascerated soak so that all you have is the flavored alcohol.

    Just what comes to my mind knowing nothing about the process lol
     
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  18. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    That is the basic process for making the extract, however since alcohols are water based and sugar is water soluble, the sugars from the fruit would be included in the extracted material. Although now that I think about it, the sugars from the alcohol will need to be removed post-extraction, as they will be left behind when the alcohol is evaporated. Hoping aromatic volatiles (the chemicals that produce flavors) are smaller than the sugars found in the alcohol... Still researching which specific volotiles are in different fruits and their sizes. They range from very small to somewhat large, although I haven't seen a molecule as large as glucose yet. Several that bond to it though, which could be tricky. Hopefully heat is enough of a catalyst to break the bond, I'm not a chemist so I won't be doing any enzyme baths. Not to mention with the number of different enzymes that would be required, there would be a significant chance of an enzyme used to separate one molecule from the sugars damaging another molecule that is needed. Back to research. On another note, flavor chemistry is fascinating if anyone is interested in chemistry.
     
  19. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    Something not previously mentioned: the reason sugars are harmful in a vape is because they combust mildly at the temperatures needed to vaporize vegetable glycerin, producing a toxic smoke. Anyone who has ever burned sugar in the kitchen and accidentally inhaled some can attest to the unpleasantness of the experience.
     
  20. apache1649

    apache1649 Full Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    Turns out mechanical disruption of plant tissue causes the material to produce different aromatic volatiles. Also, things like rinds/peels/skins from melons, citrus fruits, and apples contain lipid-based volatiles, so anyone looking to try this with fruits like that should remove those before blending. Lipids won't be good to inhale. Also found some reading that indicates the white fibrous part between the flesh and peel of citrus fruits contains similar lipid-based volatiles, so I would try to remove as much of that as possible as well. Luckily, it probably won't homogenize completely with the rest of the material when placed in a blender, so straining through a steel mesh sieve that you probably have in your kitchen would likely work pretty well to separate it from the mixture.
     
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