Reporter Takes a Cheap Shot at Suppliers of E-Cigs??

[wv2win]

Kit, thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and address your article. I understood where Sun was coming from in his first comments on your article. Knowing that you only had a few days to do your research and write the article makes more sense, now. When most of us think of reporting, we think "Dateline", 6 month investigation, lol. Since all the products are manufactured in China, trying to get the "back end" story would be very difficult. And if you have read much on this forum, you can tell that many us feel their is a "Catch 22" with e-cigs. On the one hand we would love for it to go mainstream, with improved, reliable products, consistently good service, low prices and in every big box store and corner market. On the other hand, we are all afraid that if too much attention is brought to this new product that the "quit or die" fanatics will do everything to ban the product and all we will be left with is our terrible habit. But if you have the time to hang around this forum long enough, you will find that we are mostly a good bunch of folks trying to help each other out and find a good alternative to a difficult addiction. And you might even get some very good information for another story.

Good Luck,
wv2win

 

[Kate]

Hi Kit, welcome to the forum.

Janty might be worth talking to, they are pretty progressive. Their boss, Ludo is a member of the forum.

Another member, David Yang, says he has a stake in a manufacturing business.

Here are some manufacturers:
electronic cigarette,e-cigarette,Joye Technology
Shenzhen Kanger Technology And Development Co.,Ltd--Electronic Cigarette,Ecigarette,
Welcome to Sailebao Technology Co., Ltd.
Shenzhen Smoore S&T Co., Ltd.
SHENZHEN FIRST UNION TECHNOLOGY CO.,LTD.

These are the only eliquid makers I know of:
Cigarette electronique pour arreter de fumer - Cybercig - Recharge nicotine et patch anti tabac (France)
µÂ¿µÉúÎï¿Æ¼¼ÓÐÏÞ¹«Ë¾ (China)
www.Freesmoke.eu (Spain)
Johnson Creek Original Smoke Juice - The Best E-Liquid in the World - Made Right Here in America (USA)

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Kit -

I am willing to accept that I wouldn't have followed your path to the finished piece.

But if I may: The electronic cigarette industry is really coming together. There are several very strong suppliers who have customer service and product safety as main concerns.

Personally, I am in this to ensure that myself and fellow smokers have an alternative to smoking tobacco. While the jury is still out on the scientific data, I choose to no longer be held hostage by tobacco and then hung for with the bill from big pharm.

Now that you have learned we are an extremely active group and we will hunt you down , please take some time to paruse the forum. Have a visit to our supplier forums. You will see that there is definitely an e-cig community and while our brands may be small, we are all good people attempting to help our fellow smokers move on from their hold by BT.

Thanks for your time and I do look forward to your follow up article.

Edit: Kate added excellent data there. Thanks Kate!

 

[jamie]

the income from a given article in most news sources allows for approximately two to four total hours dedicated to the creation of that article at most.

... even more reason to repeat my prior comments directly to the author - one of the best ecig articles I've read, and a pretty balanced and thorough look at the current state of ecigs. From this hard core user: Thank You Very Much and Good Job!

along with the "Quit or Die" style fanatics on the opposing side, there are also a number of fanatics on the supporting side.

Yup.

On the one hand we would love for it to go mainstream.... On the other hand, we are all afraid that if too much attention is brought to this new product that the "quit or die" fanatics will do everything to ban the product and all we will be left with is our terrible habit.

Yup squared!

 

[KitP]

Kit -

I am willing to accept that I wouldn't have followed your path to the finished piece.

But if I may: The electronic cigarette industry is really coming together. There are several very strong suppliers who have customer service and product safety as main concerns.

Personally, I am in this to ensure that myself and fellow smokers have an alternative to smoking tobacco. While the jury is still out on the scientific data, I choose to no longer be held hostage by tobacco and then hung for with the bill from big pharm.

Now that you have learned we are an extremely active group and we will hunt you down , please take some time to paruse the forum. Have a visit to our supplier forums. You will see that there is definitely an e-cig community and while our brands may be small, we are all good people attempting to help our fellow smokers move on from their hold by BT.

Thanks for your time and I do look forward to your follow up article.

Edit: Kate added excellent data there. Thanks Kate!

Please understand also that I personally support e-Cigs, keeping in mind that I don't smoke even. At the same time, I can't just be fully supportive in an article lest it display an unwarranted bias.

The community is there. The product is strong. The opposition will be intense. Right now it's flying beneath the radar, which unfortunately lends credence to some of the opposition's arguments.

Who is seeking regulatory approval? NJoy claims they are. Anybody else? Keep it small and risk having it be called a dirty little secret and attacked for that, or get it big and see what results. There's no telling. There's no indication of the manufacturers trying to get whitelisted.

As for research, there's a lot more of it done than what goes into an article.

Apparently to get kudos with this crowd, the idea is to be less expensive than NJoy and have better service guarentees. After researching the costs of raw parts in bulk, the complexity involved in the liquids, and seeing single-unit supply chain prices allowing for a markup to just $50 for a kit and internal guarentee handling being completely reasonable, you can possibly see why there are accusations of shady doings by some folks.

I could point out in the article for example, that your e-cig.org store is selling a generic branded (Super Cigarette) DSE103 for $99 (on discount from a "regular price of $139"), with a 3-month warranty on batteries and chargers and only guarenteeing that the atomizer is not DOA, 6 day guarentee. No satisfaction guarentee and a 20% restocking fee on unopened items. Carts for these are at $50 for 20 carts, making it $2.50/cart.

However, given that people are complaining about NJoy being overpriced at $20 lower normal price online than yours, and their carts being 20% less costly than yours, as well as NJoy carrying a 30-day full money back guarentee, registration with the BBB and the only complaint against them being resolved, and a 12-month warranty on Batteries, chargers, AND atomizers... Well, if I pointed that sort of thing out in the article, you'd be liable to get a worse reputation than NJoy.

If you really want to be in the actual article, I'd have to slam you for your pricing and policies.

So, again, I am VERY happy to work with people who are on the retail side of things and also fact-gatherers, but I am required to look at all the factors directly and look at it from an end-user point of view, not somebody who is in this community.

 

[TropicalBob]

Did you ever go to an out-of-town football game, Kit, and find the only ticket left was for a seat in the "local" bleachers? Here, you're in the "local" bleachers and there's only one side to cheer. Goooooo e-cigs!

You gave a good explanation of why you wrote what you wrote. And, in journalistic terms, it's not a "clarification" or "correction" or "retraction." It is an explanation; I spent 45 years in journalism to reach an understanding of how frustrating it can be when authoritative sources won't return calls and all you're left with is press releases.

It took courage to even post your response, Kit. Cheers to you for that. Now, dig into the "Legal" section on this forum and have some fun reading.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Kit -

We are all open to our own opinions. I strongly disagree with your position on the industry, but your evaluation of the e-cig is fair. The thread was about "cheap shots". Hence my original comments.

My pricing is what it is and my customers are extremely happy with their service. And please, if you are going to quote our policies, include everything: "Our goal is to have happy and referring customers. If you are unhappy with anything, whether or not you are a customer, please contact us with your questions or comments. Thank you." Shipping & Returns : Instead Electronic Cigarette, Buy e Cigarettes & Electric Cig Accessories

We are working on our pricing, but we are not bank-rolled like the big guys. You can call us expensive, but don't call us shady.

 

[TropicalBob]

Lacey, that kind of post belongs exclusively in the Supplier forum. Imagine it from, say, Trog. Sorry, but you're doing blatant promotion in this general forum thread.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

TB - I am sorry you feel that way. It was simply self defense.

 

[TribbleTrouble]

I have to admit, Kit, that when I first read your article, I thought that you were for sure on the NJoy payroll. After your posts, I went back and read it again. It makes a little more sense now. Thanks for coming in to the forum and explaining yourself. I eagerly await the followup.

 

[KitP]

I'm hoping to get enough data for a proper followup. When I've got retailers claiming to be suppliers, so little luck contacting the actual manufacturers, and situations of apparent righteous indignation and attacks from retailers whose numbers don't match up with the common numbers seen, it's not an easy situation. The pointers to the web sites of the manufacturers directly simply leaves me with whether those are the same sites that I tried to make contact previously and whether I will get just as silent a response.

I've got retailers who are lower in cost, retailers who are higher in cost, retailers going the company method and doing it well, as well as companies doing it badly. There is very little if any organization in the entire situation. Like I said, it's a product that I'd love to see work, but there seems to be less chance of that in the US itself unless much better organization occurs. Right now, the retailers tend to get accusations even frequently from each other of being nobodies. The only major "company" that I have dug up trying to do things officially is NJoy, however a lot of the community slams them, which in my professional opinion is likely to kill things. I have yet to find any other retailer that is not just reselling imported Chinese product of unknown quality.

If anybody can point me into contact with any retailers who aren't just selling imported and uncontrolled products, I'd love to speak with them. I've been given names, but quite honestly, unless I get enough direct data to do a followup, it's hard to say that it would be worth the research time.

It's one thing to say "My customers are happy" but it's another to have BBB ratings indicating such.
From an end consumer (Not part of this group) viewpoint, given a choice between "$80 with a 30-day money back guarantee, full warranty, 800 number support, and BBB membership" and "$100 with a very limited warranty, long distance support line, and no BBB record", it's impossible to recommend the second based on the information I've been given. Now, by comparison, adding value, reducing cost, or otherwise improving on the $80 item in some way means that I can consider recommending it as a possibility.

The other issue is finding confirmation of of any claims that improve on the other item. Back to the one thing to say the customers are happy, another to have a BBB record saying so.

So, here's hoping.

 

[nitewriter]

What an interesting article and a great thread!

I fully commend Kit for having the courage to come to us and confront our opinions of the article. I for one, think that was a very brave thing to do. I further commend her for her willingness to do a follow-up article and look forward to it!

Here is one person in the press (Other than TB) trying to get the facts straight. Her last post (before my reply) was at 9:11 pm. Do you think she's on the clock? I'd say she's spending far more time to assure fairness and accuracy for her follow-up article than she's being paid for.

Kudos Kit!

 

[TribbleTrouble]

I'm hoping to get enough data for a proper followup. When I've got retailers claiming to be suppliers, so little luck contacting the actual manufacturers, and situations of apparent righteous indignation and attacks from retailers whose numbers don't match up with the common numbers seen, it's not an easy situation. The pointers to the web sites of the manufacturers directly simply leaves me with whether those are the same sites that I tried to make contact previously and whether I will get just as silent a response.

I've got retailers who are lower in cost, retailers who are higher in cost, retailers going the company method and doing it well, as well as companies doing it badly. There is very little if any organization in the entire situation. Like I said, it's a product that I'd love to see work, but there seems to be less chance of that in the US itself unless much better organization occurs. Right now, the retailers tend to get accusations even frequently from each other of being nobodies. The only major "company" that I have dug up trying to do things officially is NJoy, however a lot of the community slams them, which in my professional opinion is likely to kill things. I have yet to find any other retailer that is not just reselling imported Chinese product of unknown quality.

If anybody can point me into contact with any retailers who aren't just selling imported and uncontrolled products, I'd love to speak with them. I've been given names, but quite honestly, unless I get enough direct data to do a followup, it's hard to say that it would be worth the research time.

It's one thing to say "My customers are happy" but it's another to have BBB ratings indicating such.
From an end consumer (Not part of this group) viewpoint, given a choice between "$80 with a 30-day money back guarantee, full warranty, 800 number support, and BBB membership" and "$100 with a very limited warranty, long distance support line, and no BBB record", it's impossible to recommend the second based on the information I've been given. Now, by comparison, adding value, reducing cost, or otherwise improving on the $80 item in some way means that I can consider recommending it as a possibility.

The other issue is finding confirmation of of any claims that improve on the other item. Back to the one thing to say the customers are happy, another to have a BBB record saying so.

So, here's hoping.

I think this is a good shout out for all of the suppliers(retailers) to start PM'ing Kit the info that she is looking for. This is a great opportunity for your operations to get some positive pub while at the same time better educating the public about our beloved devices. Fill Kit in on who each of you get your gear and liquid from. I think there are a lot of people on this forum who would like to know a little more about that aspect of it. I know I would.

 

[Nuck]

I enjoyed the article. It came across as fair and evenhanded and accurately reflected my own short experience as an esmoker.

I look forward to the day I can walk into a mainstream retail outlet and purchase materials that are lab tested and quality controlled and that come with a standard 90 day warranty. I don't even care if I have to pay tax on it.

Reliable industry studies on the health risks would be a nice place to start. Until that day I will experiment, sit back, puff away and enjoy the closer-knit hobby feel of the community.

 

[deewal]

Sorry to have to ask this but i'm British. What exactly are BBB ratings and what benefit does it give Njoy?
I've just looked at their website and the Penstyle looks to me like a RN4072 or DSE108.
Whatever it is their products including the Carts are still manufactured in China.

 

[Nuck]

BBB is the Better Business Bureau. It's a registry for consumer complaints against companies and it also provides a mechanism for resolution. With the advent of the internet it really doesn't serve much of a purpose for us net users since it's so damn easy to google a company and find out all the dirt.

 

[madog]

Sorry to have to ask this but i'm British. What exactly are BBB ratings and what benefit does it give Njoy?

Better Business Bureau

Start With Trust -- Start With BBB

 

[KitP]

Erp... A few multi-replies...

First off, I am not salaried or on the clock as a reporter. Those days are long gone. Even getting the old $500 for a story is gone. These days we're suffering through minimal pay for stories and then only if the stories "perform well" (Yay for internet metrics). My time is my own, I make a story and hope it eventually performs well enough to pay back the time invested in it. Since this is not my primary income, it's reasonable. I get to work with interesting things and people and hopefully bring a better eye to some situations.

Secondly... *Double-Checks* Yeah, get the reporter the data that -he- needs. *chuckles* Thanks though.

Deewal: The BBB is the Better Business Bureau. It is a voluntary watchdog agency for businesses in the US that is intended for the purpose of building consumer trust. It handles several metrics in keeping records on businesses and also acts as an intermediary for complaints.

A business's rating is generally a good indicator of how well the business performs from a customer standpoint. It also acts as a proper method of sorting out the validity of complaints. While you can find "all the dirt" about a company on the internet, some of that dirt is oft not deserved. The BBB investigates all complaints and comes to a third party decision from information on both sides as to the validity of the complaint as well as the handling of such.

A good fictional example would be of somebody complaining that an internet company is horrible because the company had a five-minute downtime and didn't give them six months of free service because of it. Those kind of blown-out-of-proportion complaints can easily be found on the internet, marring the reputation of an otherwise good company. The BBB accurately decides in cases like that the the complaint is unfounded (I'm sorry... You don't get 6 months of free service for a five minute downtime in a service that you know has no uptime guarantees) and does not cause damage to the rating because of it.

 

[TribbleTrouble]

Sorry, Dude! I just went off of Nitewriter's "Her" statement. My Bad!

 

[KitP]

Erk... Notably, also, I can't edit my messages and I hit the wrong button going from quick reply. As I was going to continue...

A BBB rating is a metric of official complaints or lack thereof, and how they are handled. A BBB membership means that unique numbers of customers and other history is given to the BBB. More customers with less complaints and longer history results in a better ranking. It technically is third party confirmation of the quality of a business with more weight than "My customers are happy".

NJoy did confirm that all of its product is manufactured in China. The boxes even clearly state that. "Made in China, Tested and Distributed in the USA". Their claim was that there are zero manufactories for E-Cigarettes in the US. My records are in the form of a phone call and I don't have the recording handy, but they either have purchased factory space or something similar, however in summary, they have US oversight in the Chinese factory. The paint on the battery bears their brand mark, but beyond that, it's identical in physical specifications to a DSE103. There is easy confirmation that DSE103 carts will physically fit the device. Given that being the case, I'd agree that the NCig style is likely physically identical to a DSE model as well.

So the folks there basically state that they are taking direct oversight over the manufacturing process to increase the quality, the physical product is produced with their specific labeling, in their specific boxes, and re-tested mechanically to try to prevent DOA's. They state they have the Chinese juice creating special mixes for them and they also claim to be the largest purchaser of juice outside China from the Chinese juice maker.

They claim they are working with the government oversight agencies in the US to gain approval as well. They have reports of an independent lab analysis of their juice though it's a composition analysis that refers to the fact that the safety and other studies of all components in the juice are readily available.

All of this information does not go into product reviews because that would be focusing more on the claims of the company than the performance of the product. All of the above information here is what I have been told by them and I have no easy way again to confirm or deny it, so it doesn't go into the article.