Safe Vaping Range for a Dual Coil Clearo

[Javamon]

I have tried this a couple of different ways in other threads, without really getting edumucated completely.

One more try. I generally consult that Power Chart 2.0 to identify safe vape ranges for different resistances.
Some say that those charts do not apply when there are two coils in parallel. I don't understand how. At the end of the day, the resistance is the resistance.

Anyway, is there a chart anywhere that can identify Safe vape ranges for different resistances - when the coil design is not single but dual, in parallel.

My clearo, by the way, is a dual coil eleaf GS Air. I love what it does in the safe range, but when I occasionally cheat and push it up a bit, I Do get more vapor and flavor. But, I don't want to be doing it if it isn't safe. [aka firing hot enough to generate formaldehyde, etc.]
eleaf says it is designed for 3.5v to 5.5v. But then again, any company citing specs is focused on selling, not necessarily my safety/health.

Anyone have a genuine factual answer?

 

[readeuler]

Anyone have a genuine factual answer?

To my knowledge, no, nobody does. What follows is simply my opinion, heavily influenced by the opinions of many others.

If you're worried about coils producing nasties (like the formaldehyde hemiacetyls that are all the rage nowadays), it seems most likely to happen when the coil temperature is too high. The wattage is a good, but certainly not perfect, predictor of coil temperature. With a dual-coil set-up, the wattage is shared (basically) equally between the two coils. Thus, dual coils will allow a higher wattage to be used, while keeping coil temperature manageable. This is easily verified by anyone stuck building coils for a 15 watt device: 15 watts just isn't enough to power two 28ga coils, in my experience, but even 12 is good enough for a single coil.

Of course, the coil temperature is influenced by several factors: Efficient wicking, ample airflow, and proximity to other objects (namely other coils, or metal atomizer walls that have been heated) giving off heat, to name a few. So I would assume it is highly likely that nobody can tell you your coil temperature, unless you're using a DNA40 device with nickel/titanium wire, AND you're running into the temperature control (otherwise, you can only say it's below a certain setting). The temperate is subject to opposing forces: Temperature wants to rise as power runs through the coil, but liquid being vaporized sucks away the heat energy, eventually reaching some unknown equilibrium temperature.

Furthermore, nobody is certain exactly what causes the nasties. It certainly has something to do with temperature (as e-liquid does not produce any formaldehyde-type byproducts at room temperature, to my knowledge), but nobody can be any more specific.

I think a good rule of thumb would be: If you find yourself getting dry/foul-tasting hits, the wattage is too high. This can happen occasionally with less-than-optimal wicking, and it isn't a big deal (at least I don't treat it as one). But if you need to consciously slow down to avoid dry hits, then yes, the wattage is too high.

(Personally I think the safe vaping charts are far more trouble then they're worth, as I can't find any explanation as to how they were created; it's completely made up, for all I know)

 

[State O' Flux]

I'm going to explain a few things, Javamon... and I'll be referring to coil setups as "builds", which will allow me to provide examples. As you're (apparently) not a rebuilder, I realize that some of this may be theoretical to you... but as a rebuilder, it's all real world application - both to me, and the poster right above me, readeuler.

I'm coming at this from the perspective of "heat flux" (HF). Heat flux is the coil(s) net radiant heat, expressed in milliwatts per millimeter squared. If you have a greater interest in this beyond my basic explanation, click the second sigline hyperlink below.


1. Example: Lets say that your 32 gauge, dual parallel 1.5Ω coil is running at 20 watts... with a heat flux of 238 mW/mm2. 238 mW/mm2 is "warm"... but not excessively warm.
Now... for the same resistance and heat flux value, but with a single coil... we require a 28 gauge wire.

We enter into extreme subjectivity here, because I and others tend to vape at heat flux values up to and including the 400mW/mm2 range. If you refer to the Steam Engine coil modeling program (see first sigline below) the median "green zone" (as determined by Lars Simonsen, the maker of Steam Engine) starts at roughly 150 mW/mm2, up to a bit past 200 mW/mm2.

2. Example: If we reduce the wattage to 12w for the dual parallel build, the heat flux is a cold 143 mW/mm2.

With a 28 gauge single coil of the same resistance, at the same 12 watts... the heat flux is near identical.

3. Example: To obtain a heat flux of around 200 mW/mm2, using a dual parallel 30 gauge build, with a resistance of 1.5Ω... we need 19 watts. To obtain the same heat flux with the same resistance and wire, but a single coil build... we can do it with only 8-9 watts.

With heat flux as another variable (I'll leave out the variable of "heat capacity" for now)... you can approach from the correct build for the available wattage, or the correct wattage for an existing, or preferred build.

The point I'm making here is that it's not so black and white... and that there are more than two or three variables determining atomizer performance. This especially holds true for someone with an APV that can "force" specific wattage values to an atomizer. Not the case with unregulated mods, where resistance determines wattage/amperage discharge values

Wire gauge, coil(s) singular or in parallel (and the coil "count") along with wattage, heat capacity and leg power loss will determine heat flux... which is one more variable that large, vape product companies look at... not something so simple as just basic resistance and voltage values.

 

[Ryedan]

Yup, what State O' Flux said ^^^

 

[State O' Flux]

Yup, what State O' Flux said ^^^

I made the whole thing up... so neener-nenner on you. ;-)

 

[Javamon]

Good stuff.

Maybe for next mod, I need to find one that can display temperature, if it exists.

 

[Ryedan]

Good stuff.

Maybe for next mod, I need to find one that can display temperature, if it exists.

The DNA40 boards allow you to set temperature of the coil and monitor power output. I believe that's about as close as you'll get.

 

[T4T3Z0R]

also worthy of note, no formaldehyde was ever found. it was a formaldehyde compound that has no verifiable health risks.

 

[renacer]

My tank is a dual coil and I always stick with 4.8 and never get burnt hits. But your mileage may vary.

 

[bas9646]

I'm going to explain a few things, Javamon... and I'll be referring to coil setups as "builds", which will allow me to provide examples. As you're (apparently) not a rebuilder, I realize that some of this may be theoretical to you... but as a rebuilder, it's all real world application - both to me, and the poster right above me, readeuler.

I'm coming at this from the perspective of "heat flux" (HF). Heat flux is the coil(s) net radiant heat, expressed in milliwatts per millimeter squared. If you have a greater interest in this beyond my basic explanation, click the second sigline hyperlink below.


1. Example: Lets say that your 32 gauge, dual parallel 1.5Ω coil is running at 20 watts... with a heat flux of 238 mW/mm2. 238 mW/mm2 is "warm"... but not excessively warm.
Now... for the same resistance and heat flux value, but with a single coil... we require a 28 gauge wire.

We enter into extreme subjectivity here, because I and others tend to vape at heat flux values up to and including the 400mW/mm2 range. If you refer to the Steam Engine coil modeling program (see first sigline below) the median "green zone" (as determined by Lars Simonsen, the maker of Steam Engine) starts at roughly 150 mW/mm2, up to a bit past 200 mW/mm2.

2. Example: If we reduce the wattage to 12w for the dual parallel build, the heat flux is a cold 143 mW/mm2.

With a 28 gauge single coil of the same resistance, at the same 12 watts... the heat flux is near identical.

3. Example: To obtain a heat flux of around 200 mW/mm2, using a dual parallel 30 gauge build, with a resistance of 1.5Ω... we need 19 watts. To obtain the same heat flux with the same resistance and wire, but a single coil build... we can do it with only 8-9 watts.

With heat flux as another variable (I'll leave out the variable of "heat capacity" for now)... you can approach from the correct build for the available wattage, or the correct wattage for an existing, or preferred build.

The point I'm making here is that it's not so black and white... and that there are more than two or three variables determining atomizer performance. This especially holds true for someone with an APV that can "force" specific wattage values to an atomizer. Not the case with unregulated mods, where resistance determines wattage/amperage discharge values

Wire gauge, coil(s) singular or in parallel (and the coil "count") along with wattage, heat capacity and leg power loss will determine heat flux... which is one more variable that large, vape product companies look at... not something so simple as just basic resistance and voltage values.

Hi,

I've been using steam-engine when building with Nickel. It seems to be if I set the variable for where I like to Vape in the "heat Flux" Box, and build around that (as long as the heat flux color code remains green). IE then set the gauge of wire, diameter, etc. I don't have issues bumping up against the temperature control on my DNA40 at 380 and it Vapes exactly as expected. (28 gauge Nickel .14 ohm, 11 wraps running at 20 watts 181 Mw/mm2)

Not having so much luck with titanium.....

I'm looking for help in understanding how the different numbers interact with each other....

Also looking for some guidance in the best ways to manipulate the numbers....

I like to vape Kanthal at .3 generally using 26 gauge on a mech. Could you please direct me as to how I would build a similar build on Nickel and Titanium?

Thanks in advance for any help