The hardest part of the job is getting them to read the rules in the first place........
True, and even for those of us who have read the rules, there are times when we let our emotions take over and then break the rules ourselves.
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Need help from former MFS (MyFreedomSmokes) customers
Has any found a supplier or company that has tobacco e-juice like or very similar to MFS Turbosmog, Tall Paul, or Red Luck?
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SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion
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True, and even for those of us who have read the rules, there are times when we let our emotions take over and then break the rules ourselves.
And not to disrupt the fun, but . . . .
Nothing new on either the District Court or Court of Appeals docket.
Nothing new on either the District Court or Court of Appeals docket.
Looks like it's now official from TW.
This received via email at 1824 (GMT+8:00) 16 Feb from TW.
Mr Wicked - electronic cigarette and e-liquid
BTW: We just had a rainshower, nothing much but I think I can hear the neighbours dancing!!!
This received via email at 1824 (GMT+8:00) 16 Feb from TW.
Mr Wicked - electronic cigarette and e-liquid
BTW: We just had a rainshower, nothing much but I think I can hear the neighbours dancing!!!
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Thanks for the information, Clark. I posted it on the "All about e-cigarettes" forum as my friends in the UK are very interested in what is happening regarding e-cigs, in the U.S.
It would appear I was laboring under a misimpression. I thought ECF was, and pardon the expression, a place where seasoned piranhas preyed on abundant guppies, and that the former ran ECF. I sincerely apologize if that is not the case, but not at all if it isn't. I am encouraged that some of us agree that cartoon advertising is, at the very minimum, reckless and industry-counterproductive (although some "adult" suppliers and consumers were clearly unhappy with that light bulb lit). Try to keep it clear: Opposing "nic 'em as soon as possible" is not an illegitimate issue for politicians; and they don't have to be corrupt to be responsible here, albeit handy for certain mixed-motive-driven politicians. Now back to the topic: You may already know this, and I apologize if I am repeating, but if you are interested in reading the underlying briefs in any federal case (to get the true flavor of very expensive opposing arguments for pennies), the place to get them and other federal court filings online is PACER. It's antiquated, but inexpensive. See Public Access to Court Electronic Records. Published decisions for the last ten years of the State & Federal Courts, together with decisions from the U.S. Supreme Court from 1781 to present, are available online for free from Lexisone. See lexisONE® Community | Search Free Case Law.
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Try not to get too upset, but it probably would have been more responsible and truthful to market this industry as a smoking cessation alternative. Hey, why lie? (I am not persuaded that testimonials should be the basis of social policy; and the science is noticeably incomplete, suggesting the need for steady oversight and regulation.) On a professional level, I am frankly surprised the FDA's lawyers have not performed better. Most large private law firms would have smashed this tongue-in-cheek industry with very thorough pre-trial investigations and formal discovery, notwithstanding written terms and disclaimers existing among manufacturers, distributors, end sellers, and reviewers.
Actually, ECF was founded by a guy in England who thought these e-cigarette things were a neat idea, and decided to make a forum where folks could talk about them. Over three years later, it's still just a place for e-cig users to talk, although quite a bit bigger than when it started.
Like I said before... it's just a discussion forum.
@B.S.
Electronic cigarettes cannot be marketed as a smoking cessation therapy, or as having any health benefits, or to treat any condition such as tobacco addiction, because that makes them a pharmaceutical or medical therapy by legal definition and thus subject to a pharmaceutical license. The practical effect of that would be to shut the industry down overnight.
Basically, that's what the whole argument has been about, to date.
The FDA's lawyers would have been very well funded indeed (with your money, of course). It goes without saying that they would have conducted a protracted, global search (with the assistance of other like-minded agencies abroad) for anything that could be remotely connected with harm due to ecigarette use. They failed in this because (a) there are no such reports - remarkable in itself when you consider that ecigarettes have been used by millions of people globally for several years - and (b), almost all the ingredients are FDA-approved in any case.
So perhaps the FDA lawyers were less than competent - or perhaps they faced an impossible task.
Electronic cigarettes cannot be marketed as a smoking cessation therapy, or as having any health benefits, or to treat any condition such as tobacco addiction, because that makes them a pharmaceutical or medical therapy by legal definition and thus subject to a pharmaceutical license. The practical effect of that would be to shut the industry down overnight.
Basically, that's what the whole argument has been about, to date.
The FDA's lawyers would have been very well funded indeed (with your money, of course). It goes without saying that they would have conducted a protracted, global search (with the assistance of other like-minded agencies abroad) for anything that could be remotely connected with harm due to ecigarette use. They failed in this because (a) there are no such reports - remarkable in itself when you consider that ecigarettes have been used by millions of people globally for several years - and (b), almost all the ingredients are FDA-approved in any case.
So perhaps the FDA lawyers were less than competent - or perhaps they faced an impossible task.
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Quoted emphasis mine. Those who profit most are mostly outside of the US. Many lurk ECF, but few are active posters. None that I know of have shared their individual entity's business philosophies with us. Here, you're preaching to the choir & you know by now that your preaching style isn't universally well accepted.
Agreed... but again, an industry remark. Mostly a consumer affinity group here.
Since you insist on indelicacy, perhaps you could personally assist in curing the "inaction".
Quoted emphasis mine. So you have at least a consumer's dog in the hunt.
Quoted emphasis mine. Along with your now-dead-horse theme of inappropriate cartoon advertising (I get it & agree but you do need a new horse), you regularly allude to some very-near-term catastrophy. Could you be specific as to what you know?
Quoted emphasis mine. Again, agreed. But this horse is fading fast too, and you're losing the choir...
Again, could you be specific as to what you know is going to occur in the near term?
Quoted emphasis mine. See what I mean about the horse & the choir?
Perhaps. But not beyond our collective understanding. And conspicuous by its absence is any offer of real help.
At last we come to it. I picked this out of context to spin my request. Please make a call or two. Are you the only nicotine user in your circle? Are there others in your world, along with you, that could make some pro bono time available to make a snowball or two and get them rolling downhill? Not on industry's behalf, but on citizens' behalf?
You lost me. But what the hell.
More than a few times around ECF, members have discussed the benefits of an industry trade association and cajoled various players toward it. The indirect influence of ECF obviously isn't enough to make it happen. While you're obviously well versed in legalities, I glean from your posts that your not all that familiar with the industry as a whole. Myriad ads, hundreds of companies, many divergent business models, a relatively small group of "major" manufacturers, cottage industry start-ups, & many types & styles of devices, all clutter the legal landscape as well as the business landscape. It is not as simple as it appears you may think it is.
Aside from the personal attacks, I'm in general agreement with your observations. Sadly, (imo) it's probably going to take a catastrophic incident to move the big players to act in unison. The industry is still "young" and under near constant threat. There is no cost-benefit analysis that has a "guaranteed" outcome. It could be that the bigger players have a purposeful shorter term business strategy in play due to the risks of being put out of business. I don't think so. But were I CEO of a big player, I"d stay on the sidelines and let the current fighters duke it out. I'd pay myself well & stash a ton of cash before handing my money to an association to pay huge legal bills that may have me out of business anyway.
Think about it. In pure theoretical & general terms, where are the very-long-term consumers supposed to come from?
AngusATAT: Oke doke Mr. Smokey ... Rolygate: That is not even close to the discovery path that I was opaquely suggesting could have been pursued, and probably was pursued, but not well. I'm not going to elaborate out of respect for the wishes of the consumers (I am reforming my approach in view of the remarks of several of you), in addition to my general practice of not advising other counsel gratis. Suffice it to say, the industry has been very lucky. ScottB: As a general rule, businesses cannot expect pro bono, the idea being generally absurd, and I do not seek your business.
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ScottB: Your call I cannot make in good faith because the science and research are insufficient. Besides, it is a smoking cessation device. I know you understand this conundrum. The other call I would make in a NY second, but I see the FDA is already on TW ...
This may be a little late to the game, but I am certain that at least several of you have lawyer buddies at top-notch firms not in the pockets of big tobacco or pharmaceuticals. (Either way, the lawyer will know or immediately ascertain if there is an actual or positional conflict of interest.) Take her/him out for dinner and drinks. Discuss the situation without tossing paperwork across the table. Broach the subject of her/him heading up an interest group, whether established or to be established. Offer some incentives in addition to the idea of her/his participation leading to work referrals for the transactional side of his/her law firm. If s/he offers assistance, send his firm, through him, some transactional work (e.g., business entity formation counseling, actual formation, etc.). It could work, and it won't hurt.
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Only in the sense that chewing on a pencil can be a smoking cessation device. Vaping does replace tobacco and, because there is no smoke, many of the dangerous aspects of smoking — second hand smoke, fire, carbon monoxide, tar, etc. — are absent. Unlike Nicotine Replacement Therapy treatments, personal vaporizers are not designed to wean people off tobacco, not nicotine. True, there are many who have used their PVs to remove inhaled nicotine from their lives, but many have used chewing on said pencil the same way. Most of the people I have encountered at ECF have no intention of quitting. Vaping gives them (and me) the nicotine we are addicted to, satisfies the psychological addiction and eliminates most dangers inherent in igniting tobacco. And, unlike with tobacco products, PVs allow us to vary our nicotine intake according to our needs at the moment.
Awwww. You found another chance to inform us that you are smarter than the other members of ECF (you aren't) and have better political connections. (Probably true when compared to me, but doubtful re many ECF posters.) I'm happy for you. By the way, you seem to have inadvertently switched your implicit subject from "I" to "you" in the above.
Do we, really? I consider my social circle to have a good number of affluent people, yet only lawyers I know are dealing with real estate and traffic tickets. I am not here because I am interested in legal arguments, I am here in spite of them, because I need my nicotine and want to stay informed of the current situation. I am not trying to say that there are no lawyers here, but I assume that many of the posters and lurkers here are more like me. The only person actually involved in something was LegalOne who posted a while ago, but I doubt he ever did more than post an update and read a few immediate comments. This thread can sometimes get very busy and difficult to follow, especially when there are news about the case, or when we get a visit from someone like you
Seriously, you are completely misjudging the audience here. We're all just average end consumers with budgets of a few hundred bucks a year reserved for purchase of our supplies, and absolutely no income from it.
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