Selecting the correct juice density.

[Al Bundy]

Hey everyone. I jotted down some rough numbers to determine the correct juice density to replace my analogs and here is what I have so far.

My regular analog is a Marlboro Menthol Light, Hard Pack. According to the Erowid site under Plants,Tobacco (can't post links yet)

the nicotine per cigarette is approximately 0.7 mg for my particular brand.

So from here I took some basic information I found on the web to approximate the juice to the analog, where the density of the juice is mg/ml, so a 36 mg juice would contain 36 mg/ml.

Now from what I've read, a cigarette will last approximately 12 - 15 puffs which is roughly equivalent to 0.1 ml of juice, or 2 drops (0.05 ml/drop).

From this we can determine the ml/puff. There's no way to know how many ml/puff you're actually using when vaping because of variances in the atomizer, battery power, etc., so I'm just going to assume the lower amount is closer to the actual value as a rough estimate.

12 puffs: 0.1 ml / 12 puffs = .00833 ml/puff

Now since my particular brand has 0.7 mg / cigarette, we can determine the mg/puff.

12 puffs: 0.7 mg / 12 puffs = 0.0583 mg/puff

Multiplying the (ml/puff)* (puff/ml) yields the density:

(0.0583 mg / 1 puff) * (1 puff / 0.00833 ml) = 6.9987 mg/ml or 7 mg/ml.

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Now what I'm not understanding is why the juice comes in such high densities? According to that site, the highest nicotine amount is approximately 2mg / cigarette (English Ovals).

at 12 puffs: (2.0 mg / 12 puffs) * (1 puff / 0.00833 ml)= 20 mg/ml.

From this it would appear 36 mg density juice is roughly equivalent to 3.6 mg/cigarette which is the equivalent of 5.14 cigarettes of my current brand. Smoking 5 cigarettes at once doesn't exactly seem prudent.

However, I'm not sure as to the absorption efficiencies of analogs vs vapor though so my rough estimates may be off quite a bit.

Thoughts/Comments?

 

[Walrus]

Some people like a really strong smoke, or there wouldn't be such a thing as Pall Mall or Lucky Strike.

I, however, purchase the 36mg strength as a cost-saving measure. The bottles of e-liquid cost the same no matter the strength, at least with every vendor I've looked at.

I buy the strong stuff then cut it down with Glycerine. Some folks buy PG. If I cut it in half, then my liquid is 18mg, and I've spent maybe a dollar on a second bottle. PG costs about $22 per gallon. I bought a 16 oz bottle of gylerine for about $9.

 

[Jaaxx]

IMHO the best way to determine what you are after is with cigs per day.

20cigs per day * mg nic per cig = Total mg nic per day

Total mg nic per day / mL of liquid vaped per day = Desired liquid strength (in mg per mL.)


The trick is finding out how many mg of liquid you like to vape before you accidentally up your tolerance. You could start with really low nic liquid and then run the numbers.

On the other hand, you could start with your Total nic per day. Then, based on the liquid you have on hand, limit your intake.

Total mg nic per day / strength of liquid (mg per mL) = Max mL to vape per day.

I don't trust the "puffs" per this or that idea at all. Just adds to the inaccuracy of an already inexact equation.

 

[Al Bundy]

IMHO the best way to determine what you are after is with cigs per day.

20cigs per day * mg nic per cig = Total mg nic per day

Total mg nic per day / mL of liquid vaped per day = Desired liquid strength (in mg per mL.)


The trick is finding out how many mg of liquid you like to vape before you accidentally up your tolerance. You could start with really low nic liquid and then run the numbers.

On the other hand, you could start with your Total nic per day. Then, based on the liquid you have on hand, limit your intake.

Total mg nic per day / strength of liquid (mg per mL) = Max mL to vape per day.

I don't trust the "puffs" per this or that idea at all. Just adds to the inaccuracy of an already inexact equation.

Here's my issue with your method.

Total mg nic per day / mL of liquid vaped per day = Desired liquid strength (in mg per mL.)

The density and amount of the ml completely changes the problem of equating the analogs to the juice.

For example I smoke about a pack a day, so that's 20cig/day*.7 mg /cig = 14 mg / day.

Using your second equation you have TWO unknowns and one equation making the problem insolvable, there's no way that will work with any math.

Total mg nic per day (known)/ mL of liquid vaped per day (unknown) = Desired liquid strength (unknown)

 

[Al Bundy]

Some people like a really strong smoke, or there wouldn't be such a thing as Pall Mall or Lucky Strike.

I, however, purchase the 36mg strength as a cost-saving measure. The bottles of e-liquid cost the same no matter the strength, at least with every vendor I've looked at.

I buy the strong stuff then cut it down with Glycerine. Some folks buy PG. If I cut it in half, then my liquid is 18mg, and I've spent maybe a dollar on a second bottle. PG costs about $22 per gallon. I bought a 16 oz bottle of gylerine for about $9.

That's a great idea for cutting the nicotine density down, but doesn't that also reduce the flavor? Or are you just mixing your own oils in unflavored 36 mg juice?

 

[Al Bundy]

I put some more thought into the puff issue and I'm fairly certain it's on the right track.

If a "puff" removes x distance from the cigarette, then you can take an equivalent number of cross-sectional slices of the cigarette. You can assume uniform nicotine density across the cigarette, or you could simply estimate the mean nicotine density from the cross-section densities. Either way, the total nicotine delivered by the cigarette equating the puffs or cross-sectional distances will still sum to the equivalent amount.

Absorption efficiency is still an issue that needs clarification.

 

[aldo]

Unfortunately ...( based on my experience) you can ad flavors …but cutting down the liquid with PG or VG it decreases significantly the (throat/chest hit)

 

[Jaaxx]

OK, a little confusing.

Let's see

For example I smoke about a pack a day, so that's 20cig/day*.7 mg /cig = 14 mg / day.

Assumption - You want to get 14mg (or less) a day of nic maximum.
Unknowns:
1. Amount you will actually vape per day.
2. Strength of liquid you need to use.

You can solve for one unknown, but not both. You have to pick one. "I will vape 2mL per day, what strength do I need" OR "I like 24mg liquid, what is the max mL per day I can vape."

In the first case:

14mg per day max (known) / 2ml per day (known/choice) = You want no more than 7mg liquid

In the second case:

14mg per day max (known) / 24mg liquid (known/choice) = You can vape up to .58 mL per day

Kind of confusing, there is no simple answer. And even using the above guidelines is shaky at best. We don't know the true absorption rate from vaping vs analogs just to name one uncertainty. The equation I use assumes 100% nic absorption for both analogs and vaping. In other words, it should help you keep at or below your analog consumption.

Jaaxx

 

[Walrus]

That's a great idea for cutting the nicotine density down, but doesn't that also reduce the flavor? Or are you just mixing your own oils in unflavored 36 mg juice?

I'm mixing my own. It would reduce the flavor.

 

[Walrus]

Unfortunately ...( based on my experience) you can ad flavors …but cutting down the liquid with PG or VG it decreases significantly the (throat/chest hit)

It does reduce the hit, but if you start with a good strong one (TW's 36mg kick like mule getting a suppository) that's not such a bad thing

 

[Al Bundy]

OK, a little confusing.
Assumption - You want to get 14mg (or less) a day of nic maximum.
Unknowns:
1. Amount you will actually vape per day.
2. Strength of liquid you need to use.

You can solve for one unknown, but not both. You have to pick one. "I will vape 2mL per day, what strength do I need" OR "I like 24mg liquid, what is the max mL per day I can vape."

This is the problem with your method. You're literally "guessing" at one of the unknowns based on nothing. The puffs can be estimated with a simple count or by measuring the cross-sectional distance a puff consumes on average and therefore there is no guessing. My method at least produces an estimate and is solvable. Sorry, but your method doesn't work mathematically or statistically.

I think it's important this gets hashed out because someone using your method to estimate the juice density is going to grossly overestimate because of the guessing involved and in turn increase the amount of nicotine intake and tolerance over time.

 

[Jaaxx]

Please define "puff" in volumetric terms as it relates to nicotine consumption.

Most users will find that they will vape differently than they smoked (more or maybe less "puffs" per day.) It's not the same thing, never will be as much as we would like.

If you are replacing one method of nicotine delivery with another, just make sure you are not increasing your maximum possible consumption unless that is your intention.

 

[Al Bundy]

Please define "puff" in volumetric terms as it relates to nicotine consumption.

Take the consumable length of a cigarette, divide it by 12 to get 12 cross-sectional pieces. Each piece would be a cylinder, volume of a cylinder is pi*r^2*h. I don't know the dimensions of a cigarette, but you can plug and chug to find the volume of each. Or if you'd like, you can take the length of the entire cigarette (h) and radius (diameter/2) to find the entire volume and divide that by 12.

Each cross-sectional cylinder under assumed uniform nicotine density, or by estimating the mean of the nicotine densities from the sample size of 12 cross-sectional cylinder, should sum on average to the amount of nicotine that would be delivered.

Your choice.

 

[Walrus]

I don't think a 'puff' can be defined accurately

Sometimes i take a quick drag. Other times I take a nice slow draw like from a cigar or pipe. Depends on the mood.

 

[Al Bundy]

Oh duh, since the 12 puffs is roughly equivalent to 1 cig, the juice density amount would be literally the amount of mg delivered by the cig * 10.

So if you smoke a cigarette with .7 mg of nicotine in it, then your juice density equivalent is .7*10 or .7 mg / .1 or 7 mg juice.

Oh and simply rewriting the rough equation you can figure out how much nicotine would be the equivalent amount.

So if you're using say 18 mg juice, 18*.1 = 1.8 mg cigarette equivalent.

If you smoke say a pack a day at 1.0 mg, that's 20 mg total, but you're vaping the equivalent amount of nicotine of 36 cigarettes per day. That's nearly double the amount.

 

[Al Bundy]

I don't think a 'puff' can be defined accurately

Sometimes i take a quick drag. Other times I take a nice slow draw like from a cigar or pipe. Depends on the mood.

"On average" means that over time the puff will approach some measure of central tendency. It can be defined on average, but vary from person to person.

 

[Al Bundy]

OK, so my rough equation for selecting juice density is:

(mg nicotine in your analog) * 10

 

[Kate]

Puff counts vary a lot and are probably the least accurate way to calculate nicotine intake.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/6525-draws-puffs-per-ml.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...7216-can-someone-help-me-math.html#post110153

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/health-safety-e-smoking/3598-nicotine-safety.html

 

[HK45]

Jaaxx,

I'm not a math wiz (you guys lose me about halfway through your equations), but just using common sense your ml per day method seems more reliable, in a really unreliable equation as you pointed out (absortion rate, etc.). The "puff" method seems untenable because everyone "puffs" differently! Some very shallow, some very deep, and that is not taken into acount in this equation.
IMO the only measure is how much has been consumed at the end of the day!

Note: I've been using 36 mg since day 1 because I was a heavy smoker and your comment about accidentally INCREASING my tolerance really concerns me. Also, especially in the beginning, I would overfill a cart a get a mouthful of fluid. I wonder how much of that is quickly absorbed by the mucous membranes in the mouth?

 

[Nuck]

Until someone comes up with an accurate value for how much of the nicotine is lost during vaporization, how much is lost in the air flow during intake and outtake and ultimately how much is absorbed into the blood stream during the whole process, the equations are pretty damn silly. Jaaxx posted a simple method that is about as accurate as you're going to get until real data is available.

Start low..raise until you feel your need satisfied. Always use the lowest possible dosage to satisfy your addiction.