Should Children be Allowed to Buy e-Liquids that contain Nicotine?

[zoiDman]

well, if we're talking pure numbers, neither poll is anywhere near a large enough sample to be representative of any population other than the population of those who took the polls.



The wording of neither poll is objective. Unfortunately the structure of the polls only allows so much text. Ideally we would be allowed to present arguments for both sides, and then ask people to vote, but that's not how it works. Much like actual elections/proposition voting, people make choices based on as little information as they come in with, and usually without thought of anything further than the initial question.

You don't think the Wording in Both is Objective?

I though Mine was Pretty Good. A Simple Yes/No Question. With an attempt to be Devoid of Overly Emotional References. Or Rhetoric.

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I think you are thinking more of a Debate. Verses a Poll Question.

 

[Lessifer]

You don't think the Wording in Both is Objective?

I though Mine was Pretty Good. A Simple Yes/No Question. With an attempt to be Devoid of Overly Emotional References. Or Rhetoric.

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I think you are thinking more of a Debate. Verses a Poll Question.

I think you attempted to make your poll question objective, and it's not necessarily the specific wording that makes it not objective. The history of the topic though is full of emotional rhetoric, and that is the point. Take the average person on the street and ask them about nicotine, and they'll tell you about smoking. So, without qualifying the differences between Nicotine in vaping form, and Nicotine in Smoking form, it is not truly objective. I do understand that you do not feel the same.

ETA: I'm thinking more of an informed choice versus an uninformed emotional opinion.

 

[zoiDman]

I think you attempted to make your poll question objective, and it's not necessarily the specific wording that makes it not objective. The history of the topic though is full of emotional rhetoric, and that is the point. Take the average person on the street and ask them about nicotine, and they'll tell you about smoking. So, without qualifying the differences between Nicotine in vaping form, and Nicotine in Smoking form, it is not truly objective. I do understand that you do not feel the same.

ETA: I'm thinking more of an informed choice versus an uninformed emotional opinion.

I tried. Because I have been Involved in Writing Poll/Survey Questions many times.

Where I do Agree that the Average person on the Street will have a Different Perception of Nicotine, there were Not the Opinions I was Looking for. I wanted to get a 'Feel" for what ECF Members felt on a Very Specific Question.


I didn't want the Poll Question to be Confused with Use. Not Indoor Bans. Or Taxes. Or buying 0mg. Or Flavors. Just about Minors being able to Legally Purchase e-liquids that contain Nicotine.

Like it or Not. Doing this Poll here on the ECF got about the Most Informed Participants there are.

And you are Right. If this Poll was done on a Non e-Cigarette forum, there would be No Blue Bar.

 

[Lessifer]

I tried. Because I have been Involved in Writing Poll/Survey Questions many times.

Where I do Agree that the Average person on the Street will have a Different Perception of Nicotine, there were Not the Opinions I was Looking for. I wanted to get a 'Feel" for what ECF Members felt on a Very Specific Question.


I didn't want the Poll Question to be Confused with Use. Not Indoor Bans. Or Taxes. Or buying 0mg. Or Flavors. Just about Minors being able to Legally Purchase e-Liquids that contain Nicotine.

Like it or Not. Doing this Poll here on the ECF got about the Most Informed Participants there are.

And you are Right. If this Poll was done on a Non e-Cigarette forum, there would be No Blue Bar.

Unfortunately, as evidenced by many of the replies to this thread, and the inability of anyone to provide actual grounds for an age restriction other than "there COULD be health effects, we JUST DON"T KNOW," even vapers are not entirely well informed.

 

[zoiDman]

Unfortunately, as evidenced by many of the replies to this thread, and the inability of anyone to provide actual grounds for an age restriction other than "there COULD be health effects, we JUST DON"T KNOW," even vapers are not entirely well informed.

I am Not going to speak for Other People.

But Maybe "Could" is enough for some people when it comes to Exposing Children to Risk?

 

[Lessifer]

I am Not going to speak for Other People.

But Maybe "Could" is enough for some people when it comes to Exposing Children to Risk?

Well, again, let me clarify. "There COULD be health effects, despite the lack of any evidence to suggest that, and despite a growing body of evidence to the contrary, we JUST DON'T KNOW."

As you know, I have no problem with "could" being the grounds for a personal decision, I only take issue with it being used as grounds for regulation/legislation.

 

[zoiDman]

Well, again, let me clarify. "There COULD be health effects, despite the lack of any evidence to suggest that, and despite a growing body of evidence to the contrary, we JUST DON'T KNOW."

As you know, I have no problem with "could" being the grounds for a personal decision, I only take issue with it being used as grounds for regulation/legislation.

Did you Really think that No Age Limit was/is a Winnable Fight when it came to the General Population?

 

[Lessifer]

Did you Really think that No Age Limit was/is a Winnable Fight when it came to the General Population?

I think it could be, if we could somehow get the word out that nicotine/vaping does not equal smoking. Although, some people will never let go of their hatred of nicotine, no matter how much evidence they are provided.

 

[zoiDman]

I think it could be, if we could somehow get the word out that nicotine/vaping does not equal smoking. Although, some people will never let go of their hatred of nicotine, no matter how much evidence they are provided.

This is a Slogan I have heard certain Members use Many Times.

Unfortunately, making a Separation between Vaping and Smoking is Not the Solution to Every Problem. Not saying we Shouldn't make the Separation. Just that it Doesn't do anything but let e-Cigarettes be Judged for both the Good AND the Bad of Vaping.

And when it comes to Trying to Convince people that their Children (as well as Other's) should be Able to Buy Something, I think you should be Prepared when the First Question they ask is... "Is it Safe?"

 

[Lessifer]

This is a Slogan I have heard certain Members use Many Times.

Unfortunately, making a Separation between Vaping and Smoking is Not the Solution to Every Problem. Not saying we Shouldn't make the Separation. Just that it Doesn't do anything but let e-Cigarettes be Judged for both the Good AND the Bad of Vaping.

And when it comes to Trying to Convince people that their Children (as well as Other's) should be Able to Buy Something, I think you should be Prepared when the First Question they ask is... "Is it Safe?"

I agree wholeheartedly. I believe vaping should be judged on its own merits, not as smoking cessation, though the view as smoking alternative is valid.

When asked "is it safe?" I am prepared to provide plenty of evidence that as far as we know, which is further than some would like people to believe, it is. If someone disagrees, I only ask that they do the same, provide evidence.

Now of course there is the question of, "define safe," to which I would reply, compared to the standards used for many other consumer goods, like water, food, medications, as well as many leisure activities.


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[zoiDman]

I agree wholeheartedly. I believe vaping should be judged on its own merits, not as smoking cessation, though the view as smoking alternative is valid.

When asked "is it safe?" I am prepared to provide plenty of evidence that as far as we know, which is further than some would like people to believe, it is. If someone disagrees, I only ask that they do the same, provide evidence.

Now of course there is the question of, "define safe," to which I would reply, compared to the standards used for many other consumer goods, like water, food, medications, as well as many leisure activities.


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e-Cigarette should Definitely be judged as a Viable Smoking Cessation. It is one of it's Strongest Merits. In Fact, that is a Big Part of the Arguments made for letting Children who Smoke buy e-Liquids that contain Nicotine.

Where the Problem to me Lies is when people say that e-Cigarettes are Safer than Smoking. So e-Cigarettes are Safe.

Studies are starting be done about Vaping at High Wattage/Temperatures. And I think the Results are Not going to be as welcome as some of the Previous Studies were.

There is Also the entire Vaping 25% Flavorings/Sweeteners/Colorant thing.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - This was just Posted in another Thread.

GRAS ingredients and other chatter aside, no one really knows the long term implications of inhaling VG, PG and flavoring agents over the long term. Bottom line is that not vaping is healthier than vaping. Vaping, in the short term, is significantly less harmful than smoking. We all have to make the decision about what we choose to do.

Bingo. The long term effects are the real question. The studies on PG/VG inhalation that I have read have been acute studies done over days or weeks. My biggest concern, however, are the flavorings. That's where the real study needs to go, imo.

However, I am willing to take my chances over my old 2 PAD habit.

This is Very Aligned to the way I feel Also.

 

[caramel]

I am Not going to speak for Other People.

But Maybe "Could" is enough for some people when it comes to Exposing Children to Risk?

http://www.cpsc.gov/Global/Research-and-Statistics/Injury-Statistics/Toys/ToyReport2013.pdf

 

[zoiDman]

http://www.cpsc.gov/Global/Research-and-Statistics/Injury-Statistics/Toys/ToyReport2013.pdf

 

[Lessifer]

e-Cigarette should Definitely be judged as a Viable Smoking Cessation. It is one of it's Strongest Merits. In Fact, that is a Big Part of the Arguments made for letting Children who Smoke buy e-Liquids that contain Nicotine.

Where the Problem to me Lies is when people say that e-Cigarettes are Safer than Smoking. So e-Cigarettes are Safe.

Studies are starting be done about Vaping at High Wattage/Temperatures. And I think the Results are Not going to be as welcome as some of the Previous Studies were.

There is Also the entire Vaping 25% Flavorings/Sweeteners/Colorant thing.

BTW - This was just Posted in another Thread.





This is Very Aligned to the way I feel Also.

I have to ask, why is vaping being held to the impossibly high standard of zero harm? No other activity, consumer good is held to this standard. Habitually eating american style pizza, every day, for twenty years, would have significant adverse long term health effects, yet there is no movement to restrict pizza sales. Studies are being done, that may show X, is not the same as verifiable proof of X. If it turns out that vaping at over 350 degrees creates SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS of harmful chemicals, fine, don't vape over 350 degrees. You don't ban mountain bikes because riding downhill over rough terrain significantly increases your chances of injury, you buy pads and a helmet.

 

[caramel]

Nine people choke to death eating mochi rice cakes in Japan | World news | The Guardian

 

[caramel]

I have to ask, why is vaping being held to the impossibly high standard of zero harm? [...]

'Cause it's pure entertainment with no nutritional or other value in getting you in good shape to work.

 

[Lessifer]

'Cause it's pure entertainment with no nutritional or other value in getting you in good shape to work.

ahem.... Nicotine, the Wonder Drug? | DiscoverMagazine.com

 

[caramel]

Get patches. Thou shalt be trained to allow no enjoyment whatsoever.

 

[zoiDman]

I have to ask, why is vaping being held to the impossibly high standard of zero harm? No other activity, consumer good is held to this standard. Habitually eating american style pizza, every day, for twenty years, would have significant adverse long term health effects, yet there is no movement to restrict pizza sales. Studies are being done, that may show X, is not the same as verifiable proof of X. If it turns out that vaping at over 350 degrees creates SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS of harmful chemicals, fine, don't vape over 350 degrees. You don't ban mountain bikes because riding downhill over rough terrain significantly increases your chances of injury, you buy pads and a helmet.

Who said Vaping is being Held to "impossibly high standard of zero harm"?