Should Children be Allowed to Buy e-Liquids that contain Nicotine?

[AndriaD]

I think it was in this thread, or maybe the other one, in which I quoted Don Henley's "I will not lie down, I will not go quietly." Making my way thru my Don Henley collection, I ran across another of my faves of his, "The Garden of Allah." In it, there's a monologue, ostensibly by "the devil," but it struck me, it's perfect as a monologue for Glanz... it's just like him, all over!

Today, I made an appearance downtown;
I am an expert witness, because I say I am.
And I said, 'Gentleman, and I use that word loosely,
I will testify for you;
I'm a gun for hire, I'm a saint, I'm a liar.'
Because there are no facts, there is no truth
Just a data to be manipulated;
I can get any result you like --
What's it worth to ya?
Because there is no wrong, there is no right,
And I sleep
very well
at night.
No shame, no solution
No remorse, no retribution...
Just people selling T-shirts;
Just opportunity to participate
in the pathetic little circus,
And winning...
winning
WINNING...

Is that not Glanz ALL OVER???

Henley's a prophet!

Andria

 

[Jman8]

I was trying to think of something on the ANTZ side of the equation that would be on par with this issue on our side, and I honestly can't think of anything as it is that fundamental of an issue. Like say ANTZ came to us and said, "we will allow all flavors to be marketed however you all want for as long as you want; and now can we negotiate with you on other things? Ya know, to be reasonable?" But even that is, for me, not on par with this issue. I would guess if going with apples to apples, if ANTZ said, we will never again forbid kids from vaping plus we will never ever use it as a reason to restrict vaping regardless of the consequences (media reports / studies), and then they wanted to have negotiations from that point, that would be a good comparison.

Part of this whole issue for me is the principle of the matter and is what I mainly wish to discuss / debate. But the other part is that we have capitulated on this point in some attempt to appease ANTZ / mass public (that is indoctrinated with ANTZ rhetoric) and THEN want to think negotiations for 'reasonable regulations' will be plausible. I find that incredibly foolish and silly politics. And is why I do think current proposed regulations are rather tame. On principle, I think the proposed deeming is drastic, but when I hear umpteen vapers saying, "well of course kids shouldn't be allowed to buy vaping stuff," then it tells me we are already squarely in ANTZ camp and so being realistic about shared reality, the current proposed deeming isn't all that bad, or is like most other substances around. That ANTZ will want to chip away more and think the current proposed deeming doesn't go far enough is also par for the course. But I don't get how any politically aware vaper doesn't see ALL OTHER POSSIBLE REGULATIONS and this one as intrinsically connected. If you do not, then IMO, you deserve to fight tooth and nail for all the little tiny morsels that we can still have on the open legal market, while the underground market (that kids today are using) will thrive, without this hangup that only a naive fool would try to justify as "reasonable."

 

[Katdarling]

ANTZ?

Glantz?


Coincidantz?

 

[Robino1]

ANTZ?

Glantz?


Coincidantz?

Not at all.
Kristin (CASAA's very own) coined the term

 

[Caro123]

I my opinion the difficulty with restricting the young teens is that the young teens who vape may very well not smoke. I would be quite confident in saying that most smokers started before the age of 18. however I could be wrong about this because of the massive antz actions/ literture/education etc today's younger smokers may have been later in picking up the habit I would be interested I seeing a poll on the age of first smoking along with the age of the smoker

 

[owningtheday]

It's not that easy to answer... I mean I'm a Libertarian, but still, is it ok to poison children by allowing them to smoke tobacco? I would say no, on the grounds of lack of informed consent. Now if for some reason, a child could give informed consent, is it ok to then allow them to buy cigarettes? That's the hard part of the question string. If any of my kids under 18 smoked, I would buy them e-cigs myself as harm reduction. I would support them being able to buy their own for the same reasons (same for everyone else's kids, of course!). I would also support them having the freedom to smoke tobacco too, if they were over 16 (the legal age for sexual intercourse in the UK) for reasons of consistency, even though the legal age for smoking is now 18 over here. I think the real question is: do kids who use e-cigs turn to tobacco? The answer is probably 50/50 and down to supply. The answer to that won't be available for some years and will be hard to gather as the kids who are using (either) won't want to break the law and get in trouble (such is the scaremongering of the law), and/or folk won't want to 'fess up to buying smokes for a 'minor'.

Edited to say:
There are so many variables though, there are social norms which are vastly different from nation to nation. A lot is down to how parents choose to educate their children (and how much information the parents have available to them, of what quality, quantity and range. The press has some sway too, still, in the age of less tobacco advertising, and more visibility of e-smokables, the media has a lot of say, and sway. Peer pressure... the list is vast. The question is still a sticky one to answer. Even the one of free will is subjective. The one of 'age' certainly is.

 

[VapieDan]

Strange I do not see any discussion of caffeine age restriction. Many soda pops are full of it. Can that be any worse than nicotine? How about sugar? Get those kiddies a sugar high! The laws are made by those with the most money and thus the most influence.

 

[Caro123]

when is a child no longer a child - when nature no longer considers it to be so - my opinion

 

[jrlakeman]

The use of e cigs amongst the teens in my city has spread like wild fire. I have mixed feelings about it. I rather them vape than smoke but i think its more of a new trend for alot of them. I think 18 is fair enough age to purchase. The dedicated ones will find a way to get what they need as they do with alcohol and everything else. And the ones that just do it cuz it looks cool vaping will get weeded out. Where theres a will theres a way and teens will is very strong.

 

[zoiDman]

The use of e cigs amongst the teens in my city has spread like wild fire. I have mixed feelings about it. I rather them vape than smoke but i think its more of a new trend for alot of them. I think 18 is fair enough age to purchase. The dedicated ones will find a way to get what they need as they do with alcohol and everything else. And the ones that just do it cuz it looks cool vaping will get weeded out. Where theres a will theres a way and teens will is very strong.

The Issue of Minors and Children who do Not Smoke or Any Desire to Smoke having Unrestricted access to e-Liquids that contain Nicotine is to me what Makes this Topic an Difficult one.

In the context of Just considering Minors and Children who Smoke, it is a Much More Simplified Topic. But that Isn't what is Happening in the Real World.

 

[Robino1]

But in a sense it is what is happening in the Real World.

Minors continue to start smoking. Would they be better off starting to Vape? (instead)

Adding: Also we know that sometimes smoking is a fad. A stage they go through. I did. When I was ready to stop the 'fad', cigarettes already had me hooked.

If, and this is a big if, nicotine by itself is not addictive to never smokers....it will be easy enough for young people to drop that fad when they are over it.

 

[AndriaD]

But in a sense it is what is happening in the Real World.

Minors continue to start smoking. Would they be better off starting to Vape? (instead)

Adding: Also we know that sometimes smoking is a fad. A stage they go through. I did. When I was ready to stop the 'fad', cigarettes already had me hooked.

If, and this is a big if, nicotine by itself is not addictive to never smokers....it will be easy enough for young people to drop that fad when they are over it.

That's my thinking exactly -- I started smoking at 13; when I was 23 I met a guy who lit up all my lights, but he was a RABID non-smoker.... and well, I tried, I really did... lasted for 3 months of cold turkey, but then I started back in pure desperation. If it had been vaping I was trying to quit instead of smoking, I'm thinking that fad would have disappeared right then, more than 30 yrs ago, instead of carrying on smoking for another 29 yrs.

Andria

 

[Lessifer]

The Issue of Minors and Children who do Not Smoke or Any Desire to Smoke having Unrestricted access to e-Liquids that contain Nicotine is to me what Makes this Topic an Difficult one.

In the context of Just considering Minors and Children who Smoke, it is a Much More Simplified Topic. But that Isn't what is Happening in the Real World.

But in a sense it is what is happening in the Real World.

Minors continue to start smoking. Would they be better off starting to Vape? (instead)

Adding: Also we know that sometimes smoking is a fad. A stage they go through. I did. When I was ready to stop the 'fad', cigarettes already had me hooked.

If, and this is a big if, nicotine by itself is not addictive to never smokers....it will be easy enough for young people to drop that fad when they are over it.

I do believe the nicotine used in vaping is far less addictive, if not non-addictive. However, I think it's mostly a non-issue. I don't have the studies handy, but that video I transcribed recently talked about them too, the majority of teens who are "e-cig users" are not habitual, every day users. Those who are habitual users are/were also smokers. The majority of the "occasional" users don't use nicotine at all, or do at the lowest(3mg) levels. More surveys need to be done, but I think that will continue to be the norm.

Unfortunately, the biggest set of data we have, and the one quoted most often, didn't ask the most important questions such as Do you use them every day? and Do you use e-liquid that contains nicotine?

 

[DaveSignal]

People should be able to put anything in their bodies that they want to. As long as they aren't hurting anyone else, I don't think we should have laws preventing anyone from using anything that they desire... this includes cigarettes, high fat foods, caffeine, even currently illegal narcotics. People don't need to go to jail and have their lives destroyed for purchasing something for their own pleasure that doesn't hurt anybody else. We don't need our government to continue making things illegal that should be parenting decisions.

 

[Spidey2011]

People should be able to put anything in their bodies that they want to. As long as they aren't hurting anyone else, I don't think we should have laws preventing anyone from using anything that they desire... this includes cigarettes, high fat foods, caffeine, even currently illegal narcotics. People don't need to go to jail and have their lives destroyed for purchasing something for their own pleasure that doesn't hurt anybody else. We don't need our government to continue making things illegal that should be parenting decisions.

Exactly. And in the case of minors, it should be up to the parents if they want to allow that or not.

 

[Jman8]

It's not that easy to answer... I mean I'm a Libertarian, but still, is it ok to poison children by allowing them to smoke tobacco? I would say no, on the grounds of lack of informed consent. Now if for some reason, a child could give informed consent, is it ok to then allow them to buy cigarettes?

The libertarian answer to this is a resounding yes. I'd be very curious how one could argue otherwise.

If you start with the premise (and fact) that everything, without exception, causes some degree of harm, then informed consent by any individual, regardless of societal status, would say either free will rules supreme, or societal standards rule supreme. In my opinion, observation and understanding the decision of which reigns supreme is self evident.

 

[Jman8]

But in a sense it is what is happening in the Real World.

Minors continue to start smoking. Would they be better off starting to Vape? (instead)

Adding: Also we know that sometimes smoking is a fad. A stage they go through. I did. When I was ready to stop the 'fad', cigarettes already had me hooked.

If, and this is a big if, nicotine by itself is not addictive to never smokers....it will be easy enough for young people to drop that fad when they are over it.

To me, the real world decision is both exist and both are options to everyone that isn't under strict adult supervision.

Most of us reading this started smoking under 18. There were alternatives then, but nothing that compared to smoking. Were vaping an alternative then, I would be very surprised if a majority become abusive smokers for long periods of time. I wouldn't be surprised if a minor after trying vaping wishes to try a smoke, nor would I be surprised if a minor enjoyed smoking. But it is very rare to find someone that enjoys being an abusive smoker, and most of us also have history of trying to stop and not succeeding at that very well. Then along comes vaping, and some of us (myself excluded) are the types that went from 3 to 5 PAD smoking down to zero in less than a week due to vaping. That is so hugely significant that I dare say we are no longer in the territory we once were when if you did take up smoking, enjoy smoking, you will automatically (or likely) become an abusive user. IMO, I think the days of abusive smoking are numbered, even while I'm sure there will be exceptions to what I'm conveying. But if next generation is more or less occasional smokers, then that would be hugely significant change, even while anti types and (some) ex-smoking types would think it a travesty that anyone smoke and enjoy it.

 

[Robino1]

Jman, I would so love to test what you have accomplished (being able to smoke occasionally) but I am afraid. There, I said it out loud.

For as long as can remember, I had been trying to quit smoking. Cutting back never, ever, worked. What you do amazes me. But, you have been successful in quitting cold turkey (and who the hell came up with that term anyway??!?) several years at a time. That was not something I was successful at....ever.

Yeah, the thought of even having one cigarette scares the crap out of me. I was not able to break that bond I had with cigs until I discovered vaping.

You, my friend, are a minority. Probably the only time being a minority is a Good thing

For many of us, the struggle we had/have is so strong that we really can't allow ourselves to test out what you manage to do. I'm just throwing another perspective into the pot.

 

[AndriaD]

Jman, I would so love to test what you have accomplished (being able to smoke occasionally) but I am afraid. There, I said it out loud.

For as long as can remember, I had been trying to quit smoking. Cutting back never, ever, worked. What you do amazes me. But, you have been successful in quitting cold turkey (and who the hell came up with that term anyway??!?) several years at a time. That was not something I was successful at....ever.

Yeah, the thought of even having one cigarette scares the crap out of me. I was not able to break that bond I had with cigs until I discovered vaping.

You, my friend, are a minority. Probably the only time being a minority is a Good thing

For many of us, the struggle we had/have is so strong that we really can't allow ourselves to test out what you manage to do. I'm just throwing another perspective into the pot.

I agree, considering what I experienced when I went 4 days without vaping, smoked again to get rid of the godawful cravings, and within 3 days found myself back at pack+ in about 7 hrs of wakefulness, even though I was still trying to vape. I'd only been smoke-free for about 3 1/2 months, it's true, so it's possible that given a long enough time away from smoking, that wouldn't be the case... but I don't want to risk it; it was too hard getting smoke-free the 2nd time.

Andria

 

[DoctorJ]

Is the thread question rhetorical? Really? Children be "allowed" to buy any kind of nicotine product? Of course not!