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Need help from former MFS (MyFreedomSmokes) customers
Has any found a supplier or company that has tobacco e-juice like or very similar to MFS Turbosmog, Tall Paul, or Red Luck?
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Should Electronic Cigarettes be Regulated as a Medicine? Like the Nicotrol Inhaler or the Nicotine Patches and Gums?
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I don't understand why you keep talking about nicotine and recreational tobacco. All the FDA has to do is to require all eliquid to be FDA approved before it can be sold in the US. The cost and time required to jump through that hoop will cause most eliquid manufacturers to exit the market before even making the attempt, and for those hearty souls who want to take a chance, the FDA just has to say, "no, this liquid contains dangerous byproducts when vaped at 300C." Enjoy vaping without any eliquids.
And the FDA keeps the money that the vendor paid just to have the FDA say NO. That money is not refundable.
Cash cow anyone?But Sloth, that is Exactly what the FDA is Going to Do. We have known that for a Long Time.
Or at Least, Many of Us Have.
Errr...And the FDA keeps the money that the vendor paid just to have the FDA say NO. That money is not refundable.
BT is probably going to take some of it too. Who else has the stake in the game and the resources and facilities to host the testing site(s)?
Sent from my device.
Good material. It also confirms that, when compared to smoking tobacco, vaping is quite a breeze. In the particular case of acrolein, what the graph says is that one product shows 0 acrolein + acetone and the other shows 0,18ug / 30 inhalations, compared to 3.65 ug for tobacco. This is 20 times less. The authors also indicate that the acrolein/acetone probably comes from flavour ingredients not decomposition of VG. If you're still worried you can always vape high PG / flavourless. I personally found 2 canadian suppliers that test their liquids by independent lab and publish the results. I picked flavors that I like and that show low numbers.
Your last sentence is disturbing on many levels. First, a lack of historical perspective - regulatory bodies are a recent phenomenon, not a basis, of society. Second, a lack of understanding the nature of notice and comment rule making - regulations are not "passed' by a representative government subject to the constraints of elections, they are written by protected civil employees Unless challenged by congress or by lawsuit these regulations are accepted as law. Third, a fundamental capitulation to the supremacy of the government over the governed - here words fail me but I think your capitulation is a majority view. This is discouraging in that the view concedes the superiority and legitimacy of an over-reaching federal government. It is sad; the end of this is inevitable and the end is an administration that will act without the consent of the governed, possibility through executive order and unending bureaucratic regulation. If this is your concept of good, you are welcome to it but I hope that you fail.
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IMO, you are not looking at the logical arguments against mandatory labeling. For surely, as you have noted, we currently live in that reality and you are vaping. So, either you are okay with your own hypocrisy on this issue (which I believe to be the case) or you favor regulations, mandated by the government. I'd like to think the 2nd isn't true for you, or any vaper, but as the poll you love linking to shows, 80% of vapers do want government regulations, but think somehow the government can not be included in "mandatory" regulations. I've called this out before and won't be shy calling it out again.
You won't know after labeling occurs. You will think you have 'some idea.' But won't know. Therefore, it is not logical to add labels. It is desired, and that desire is, for some, leading to peace of mind. But these labels already exist. Testing already exists. It just isn't mandatory across the industry, and many of us are VERY OKAY with that. I'm VERY OKAY with you having desire for tested products which include labels / listing of ingredients. I think there is a market for that. But I become adamantly opposed when you proffer that all vendors must do this or they are engaged in irresponsible tactics.
The logical premise here is that the general public will never know what's in any product they consume UNLESS they do own testing that matches own desires. And UNLESS they do so, they will not be in the know. They will be relying on faith, not logic (foremost).
How do you know this? I mean, we already have self imposed regulations from vendors that are not industry wide, but exist nonetheless. So, for all we know, no regulations could be plausible solution to the managed chaos we are employing. But I reckon we will never experience this because when people make anything consumable, they tend to care about quality. That usually leads to self regulation, and thus a world where these regulations that I think you (actually) desire, already exists. What currently doesn't exist is federal regulations that are mandatorily applied to all vendors.
As surely regulations are coming from the Feds, three others things are SURELY coming:
1 - a black market (matters not whether you will participate in that market segment)
2 - possibility for more harm caused due to regulations (I have standing wager with anyone who thinks there will be less harm once regulations are in place)
3 - disruption in the market segment, which will be balanced out by those participating in an illegal market, but not traceable because those who operate on the black market make it a point to not have it traceable. Noticeable will be loss of jobs / businesses that just recently were doing well, but now cannot afford to stay in business due to onerous regulations.
Wouldn't really matter if you did care about what people vape in their own private space. And with vaping, you may never know what people are vaping in an enclosed space (with your children present), even while I know you care. Such is the nature of vaping, and well, sorry if this rubs you the wrong way, but I am explaining reality.
Thing is onerous regulations will create a black market. IMO, there is as much a 'causal' link for this as there is for 'harm associated with smoking.' There is zero need for a black market right now. But with regulations, the causal link would be easy to observe for anyone paying attention. There, people will be able to get products without labels, with diketones, with every flavor currently available, and with varying combinations of nicotine. Or what exists currently. I know it will not be inherently dangerous to operate in that market, but will of course be risky, as it will be inherently illegal. But, this will be caused by regulations (of the onerous variety).
To me, it is entirely plausible to want diketones regulated in eLiquids that I vape without it being deemed mandatory for entire industry to go along with this. Once the mandatory thing is accepted as 'way things must be' then I observe that chaos is in fact what is being invited into the market. Because black market will ensue. And as the black market holds potential to be nasty in some cases, then it would be highly irresponsible for anyone to insist that there be a mandatory outcome for all businesses to adhere to. While instead it would be entirely responsible for individual consumers to seek businesses that match the type of product they want.
Just as FDA, BT, BP and BG will 'game the system' so will black marketers. And currently there is zero reason for a black market, but some players who seek to game the system will be held partially responsible for creating said black market.
I'm going to go on record as saying that worrying about brief exposures to second-hand diketones is absurd.
Which leaves only first-hand exposure to be concerned about.
Unknown.
IMO, no not safer. The substitute for diacetyl has not undergone long term studies to determine "safer."
Unknown.
IMO, I would prefer no colorants, but not because of safety issues.
Unknown.
IMO, the limits already exist from various vendors and I seek those out that match what I desire, though explore new vendors because I see this as non-issue on safety.
Unknown.
When it is 100% known, that would be time to consider regulations that stem 100% from science and not politics. Implementing the notion of "possibly safer" would mean we are charting unknown territory under the guise of false protection. Which is part of reason why I wish to wager with anyone who thinks vaping will be safer when regulations are in place.
Anyone arguing for 100% safety or harmlessness, needs to offer up products that match that standard or realize that it is simply not possible. If it were possible, I imagine we wouldn't be living in a reality where hazardous/risky vaping was even up for discussion.
I don't know how many people followed this link. It mostly set my mind at rest as far as acrolein goes, but it had some scary information about glycerol made from sources that include the Jatropha plant. Glycerol made from Jatropha contains extremely dangerous ester compounds which can cause organ failure and other problems.
I read around on the topic, this is what I've discovered so far and it's not reassuring. Bear in mind this is just a couple of hours of random internet mining, mixed in with my own immaculate analysis. I apologise for any of this that is out of date or wrong.
Maybe this thread isn't the place for this post, but the subject came up here so I went ahead.
I found a bunch of dog related sites that were concerned about Jatropha. Apparently chicken jerky strips made in China are suspected to have caused a lot of illness and death among pets. They can contain up to 20% glycerol. The FDA went over there and found some manufacturer using industrial glycerol instead of food grade for these jerky treats. The manufacturer claimed it was food grade relabeled as industrial for tax avoidance purposes. The inspectors followed it upstream and concluded that might be true, but were unable to verify it.
There appears to be no commercially useable test for Jatropha esters. There are laboratory level tests but they are too complex and expensive for commercial use. Currently the only way of ensuring its absence is to verify the supply chain. I think that's current.
Jatropha is OK in industrial grade glycerol but not in food grade.
I looked around several juice supplier sites and so far I've only found one reference to the subject. I'm sure there are others but none of ones I looked at mentioned it.
" Wizard Labs vegetable-derived Glycerin is produced using USP grade Kosher certified non-GMO Glycerin with a minimum 99.7% purity. The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has issued a warning concerning glycerin produced from the Jatropha plant which can contain toxins, including phorbol esters, that naturally occur in the plant. All of our vegetable-derived glycerin is 100% sourced from palm fruit, and does not contain any Jatropha plant or derivatives."
It's known that some manufacturers in China, in areas other than nic juice, have illegally used cheaper industrial grade glycerol, which may or may not contain Jatropha esters, instead of food grade. Don't know why we should think nic juice manufacturers would be the exception. I trust American manufactures a bit more, but not that much more.
These materials go through so many hands before they get to us that the details may get lost along the way. The juice mixer has to trust their glycerol supplier, who has to trust the manufacturer, etc. If they are even aware of the danger.
I found a paper on glycerol production. It was very technical and way over my head, but it described a process involving steam treatment at low pressure that supposedly destroys the ester chemicals. However it also said that it was not known whether this left behind ester degradation products which could potentially be equally dangerous. Who knows if glycerol treated this way is being used by manufacturers.
I just dumped 2 1/2 bags of chicken jerky treats in the trash.
Sure.
But we Don't Live in that Happy, Wonderful, Magical World where Science Trumps Politics in All Areas.
So we should Keep the Conversation to the World where we Do Live.
Then you know what it would smell like if it gets produced during vaping.
Here's a nice article about acrolein, I recommend it to those concerned: http://www.epa.gov/iris/toxreviews/0364tr.pdf
As for the jathropa - if you can't trust your juice vendor to use USP Glycerin, then DIY or vape 100 PG or buy 100PG liquid and add some USP Glycerin yourself.
The one where black markets do exist regardless of whether or not some vapers may or may not participate in it.
One vaper guarantees regulations.
I guarantee a black market.
I think Both Members are Correct.
Just not going to say that the Majority of Vapers are going to be Happy with Either.
Reading this thread confirms that we could be in for a rough ride.... luckily the die-hard-free-for-all-I-can-do-whatever-i-want are a minority ....
I wouldn't want to ride an elevator with any of them....
I wouldn't want to ride an elevator with any of them....
I think you Need to Raise your Standards.
Horse {Moderated}.
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