Should Electronic Cigarettes be Regulated as a Medicine? Like the Nicotrol Inhaler or the Nicotine Patches and Gums?

[zoiDman]

Complete nonsense. If someone returns to smoking its a choice, nobody is forcing you to smoke. What an irresponsible position to have.

You sure Paint with a Wide Brush.

And seem to see things from Only Your Perspective.

 

[Jman8]

Problem? WHAT problem?
Primitive and unconscious denial is classified as a psychotic defense mechanism because it denies or distorts reality itself. Those in the grip of psychotic denial are literally out of touch with reality. Thus an alcoholic with multiple and perfectly obvious negative consequences from his pathological drinking(legal, health, marital and job problems) may, difficult as this is to believe, indignantly and -from his perspective- honestly deny that he has a serious problem with alcohol. He doesn't know what people who criticize his drinking are talking about - and he is genuinely hurt and offended at what he perceives to be their unfair and unreasonable attacks upon him. He often reacts to expressions of concern about his drinking with self-pity, resentment, and -of course- more drinking.

Denying that you have a problem doesn't make for addiction. I could say you are addicted to killing rabbits. If you deny this, then surely you are addicted to killing bunnies.

The "multiple and perfectly obvious negative consequences" are the key to what this paragraph is conveying. You have cited that if you do not have nicotine there are harmful consequences. THAT is a distortion of reality, yet I do believe you when you say this, and so recognize that it is apparently true for you, for where you are at right now. But, to fit with the "What problem?" paragraph, you would have to explain the multiple and perfectly obvious negative consequences come from your continued use of nicotine. Perhaps you are in denial of those problems, and therefore can't be reliable witness on your own use. Perhaps a family or friend can point these out. But do you think friends and family would say that your use of nicotine is negatively impacting your marriage/relationship, or your job? Is it leading to significant, noticeable health issues? If not, and no one can readily claim that it is, then your issues with nicotine and habitual use may not rise to level of addiction. Nor would you be in denial if you claimed to not be addicted.

I'm not THAT bad!
Minimization and downplaying of the problems connected with addiction fill in the gaps and take up the slack left by the failure of psychotic denial to adjust reality completely to the requirements of the addiction. The addict admits that difficulties exist - but he stoutly maintains, frequently in the face of an astonishing and rapidly accumulating mountain of evidence to the contrary, that they are not really as bad as others make them out to be.[/list]

Again, this is saying that your friends and family can, readily, attest to events in your life that nicotine use is leading to negative consequences. Whereas you feel that use of nicotine, in light of what they are purporting is "not that bad."

In this thread, we have to paint pictures of "perfectly obvious" examples of vaping where say a vaper walks into enclosed space and blows vaper in everyone's faces and then tries to say if "you" have any problem with this, it is entirely your problem. Yet, in all my times of vaping indoors, I have never encountered this. I would very much welcome all persons who have ever seen me vape indoors to come forward and answer a question that may lead to this sort of claim. I believe zero will be found, but I recognize I could be mistaken.

As one who consistently advocates for vaping everywhere with respect, I continue to find it odd that vapers, of all people, would see it as virtually impossible to vape indoors and not do so with respect/consideration to others.

 

[Oberon75]

Complete nonsense. If someone returns to smoking its a choice, nobody is forcing you to smoke. What an irresponsible position to have.

Were addicts. It's not a choice. Without nicotine, I get physically sick and ecigarettes are the only thing that have kept me off real ones.

If smoking is a choice, I certainly wouldn't have spent $50k+ on cigarettes on my lifetime so far.

Something tells me you aren't even a vaper and have no understanding as to what this industry even is.

 

[sub4me]

Perhaps e liquids will cause harm or death after years of use also. Are some gonna accuse them of murder also because they sold you a product that you choose to use in great excess?? Those murders, lol, how silly.

 

[Oberon75]

Perhaps e liquids will cause harm or death after years of use also. Are some gonna accuse them of murder also because they sold you a product that you choose to use in great excess?? Those murders, lol, how silly.

So what about Potato Chips and Bread? Do you oppose regulating these products the same way?

 

[sub4me]

Were addicts. It's not a choice. Without nicotine, I get physically sick and ecigarettes are the only thing that have kept me off real ones.

If smoking is a choice, I certainly wouldn't have spent $50k+ on cigarettes on my lifetime so far.

Something tells me you aren't even a vaper and have no understanding as to what this industry even is.

Wrong on every account.

 

[Oberon75]

Wrong on every account.

No offense but you do sound like you have some Antz blood in you.

 

[PapaSloth]

You sure Paint with a Wide Brush.

And seem to see things from Only from Your Perspective.

Legally speaking, this comes under the heading of "joint or several liability," where more than one party (including the deceased) contribute to the death. In such cases, the damages may be proportional based on the relative fault of the parties, or joint and several where each party is individually liable to the full extent of the damages. In order to argue that it's entirely the other party's fault, you have to establish that you have no fault in the matter, not merely that the other party had some or even most of the fault. So, saying that it's the victims choice to smoke does not legally exonerate any organization that contributed to the death.

Just because someone is worse than you doesn't excuse you from being bad.

 

[sub4me]

No offense but you do sound like you have some Antz blood in you.

Wrong again. I use tobacco and vape products as a choice. Nobody is forcing me to. Others just like to blame someone else for their lack of self control.

 

[englishmick]

I said:

There was a significant drop in smoking levels wherever taxes were increased on cigarettes, and the size of the drop directly correlated to the level of tax increase. I can't quote a source since this is just my recollection of stuff I read or heard on the TV.

Just so you notice what your whole post is based off of and maybe realize what implications that may have.

Sent from my device.

OK, not my best day. I've been debunked so thoroughly that I should probably stand in the corner for a while with a pointy hat on. It was early in the morning though. My rear end wakes up at 6.00 when the alarm goes off but my brain doesn't come online until around 10.00.

Maybe TV should be regulated.

 

[sub4me]

Legally speaking, this comes under the heading of "joint or several liability," where more than one party (including the deceased) contribute to the death. In such cases, the damages may be proportional based on the relative fault of the parties, or joint and several where each party is individually liable to the full extent of the damages. In order to argue that it's entirely the other party's fault, you have to establish that you have no fault in the matter, not merely that the other party had some or even most of the fault. So, saying that it's the victims choice to smoke does not legally exonerate any organization that contributed to the death.

Just because someone is worse than you doesn't excuse you from being bad.

Perhaps civil suits will be brought against e liquid companies for further addicting the public.

 

[beckdg]

They will be able to afford it. The licensing is very expensive, but they will have so much business that they will be able to afford it.

Assuming they have the capital, credit and backers to pay for it and the massive expansion they're going to have to undergo to be the only non BT game in town.

Sent from my device.

 

[zoiDman]

Legally speaking, this comes under the heading of "joint or several liability," where more than one party (including the deceased) contribute to the death. In such cases, the damages may be proportional based on the relative fault of the parties, or joint and several where each party is individually liable to the full extent of the damages. In order to argue that it's entirely the other party's fault, you have to establish that you have no fault in the matter, not merely that the other party had some or even most of the fault. So, saying that it's the victims choice to smoke does not legally exonerate any organization that contributed to the death.

Just because someone is worse than you doesn't excuse you from being bad.

I think you Replied to the Wrong Post?

 

[sub4me]

Assuming they have the capital, credit and backers to pay for it and the massive expansion they're going to have to undergo to be the only non BT game in town.

Sent from my device.

Njoy already has done it. Their slogan is independent of big tobacco and always will be.

 

[PapaSloth]

The "multiple and perfectly obvious negative consequences" are the key to what this paragraph is conveying. You have cited that if you do not have nicotine there are harmful consequences. THAT is a distortion of reality, yet I do believe you when you say this, and so recognize that it is apparently true for you, for where you are at right now. But, to fit with the "What problem?" paragraph, you would have to explain the multiple and perfectly obvious negative consequences come from your continued use of nicotine. Perhaps you are in denial of those problems, and therefore can't be reliable witness on your own use. Perhaps a family or friend can point these out. But do you think friends and family would say that your use of nicotine is negatively impacting your marriage/relationship, or your job? Is it leading to significant, noticeable health issues? If not, and no one can readily claim that it is, then your issues with nicotine and habitual use may not rise to level of addiction. Nor would you be in denial if you claimed to not be addicted.

So, I have a three hour lecture on Monday and Wednesday nights this term. After about an hour, I start to get tetchy and short tempered. I have to call a 10 minute break for the class, so I can go out and medicate myself, so I don't start yelling at my students. Then, an hour later, I need to do the same thing.

If that's not a clear-cut example of negative consequences, then I don't know what is.

I also lung hit several ml per day of 12mg/ml eliquid with 20-30% flavor at 50W, without really knowing (or really caring) if there will be any negative long-term consequences. I have to assume that there will be, but I'm perfectly happy to accept that level of risk.

Sounds like addictive behavior to me.

As far as Skoony goes, I don't know his life, so I have no idea whether he's an addict in denial or not an addict at all. But his claim that I am not legally or medically addicted to nicotine doesn't reconcile well with my personal observations.

 

[PapaSloth]

I think you Replied to the Wrong Post?

I have that poster on ignore, so I replied to your post because you quoted his statement. I understand that might be confusing.

 

[Oberon75]

Wrong again. I use tobacco and vape products as a choice. Nobody is forcing me to. Others just like to blame someone else for their lack of self control.

Still haven't answered my other question. Do you oppose the regulation or ban of other potentially dangerous products like baked bread?

 

[englishmick]

Do you consider American Spirit Cigarettes "Safe" to use. Or just a "Safer" Alternative to Something Else?

Definitely not safe. I have no idea whether they are actually safer. It made me feel better about myself when I started smoking them, but that's probably just one of those addict behaviors. Like, at least I'm not as bad as those other alcoholics who drink cheap gin.

Their success does suggest that quite a few people would go for vaping products that were marketed as not-BT.

 

[zoiDman]

So, I have a three hour lecture on Monday and Wednesday nights this term. After about an hour, I start to get tetchy and short tempered. I have to call a 10 minute break for the class, so I can go out and medicate myself, so I don't start yelling at my students. Then, an hour later, I need to do the same thing.

...

Here is something I posted a long time ago. Maybe it could be of some Help.

Not a Debate or an Opinion. Just something that Happened to me Related to Teaching and School.

-----

I teach at a college and Many of my students know that I am a former Smoker who now uses e-Cigarettes. I had a student two semesters ago ask if he could vape During class? I told him No.

He was polite but wanted to know what the reason was. I told him that our College has a No e-Cigarette use policy on campus Policy (Parking Lots and Cars is Fine) so it really wasn’t my decision to make.

I asked him if he could get through a Two Hour class without taking a hit of his e-Cigarette? He said “Yeah, But I think about it All the Time.” I asked him if he had his PV with him right now and he pulled out an eGo from his Shirt Pocket.

I told him that Maybe he wouldn’t think about it so much if he Didn’t carry his PV to class? I asked him try something. To leave his PV in his car when he came to my class and see if it helped. He kinda looked at me funny but said he would try it.

I never said anything else to him about it but for the next couple of weeks every time I would come into class I would look at him and Wink while I pointed at my Shirt Pocket. I think the rest of the class though I was Crazy.

On the day of the Mid-Term, the student said he wanted to talk with me after class. After all the exams were turned in he told me that he had been leaving his PV in his car when he was on campus. He said that he wasn’t constantly thinking about taking a Hit or Stealth Vaping much anymore. And that he could concentrate more not only on my class but All his classes. I told him that was Great because he was somewhat struggling with the course material in my class. (Some people just have a hard time with Math.)

He also said that he was starting to leave his PV in his car when he went to the Mall, to Movies and to Restaurants.

I didn’t talk much with him for the rest of the semester. When I did it was always about some Math Concepts.

About the last week of classes I was getting out of my car when I saw a Student running towards me waving their arms a shouting something. Trust me. A student Waving their Arms and Shouting is Seldom a Good Thing. But it was my student and he had this Big ....ty Grin on his face.

He told me that two days ago he got to campus and realized that he had left his PV at home. He said that he was going to drive home after his Chem class to get it. But after class he had gone to the Library to study Math and it was about a Hour into his studying until he realized that he still didn’t have his PV. He decided just to stay on campus and study Instead of going home for the PV. That this was the first time in a Year of vaping that he had Not Freaked Out or Rushed home to get his PV.

He went on to say that he didn’t Stealth Vape anymore and if he was busy doing something, that he could go for Hours before he “Needed” to take a Hit. He was so Animated and kept wanting to shake my hand.

He ended up getting a “C” in the class. But when I saw him the following semester he said he wanted a “B” but was OK with the Grade because he learned something Very Important. And it didn’t have Anything to do with Math.

---

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...50-kids-skipping-class-smoke.html#post5751420

 

[Jman8]

It probably prevented abuse by the tobacco companies. Like additives to make the addiction much worse.

Ya know how people cite the meme "BT put stuff in their products to make them more addictive?"

I suggest thoroughly investigating this meme. Find out why BT chose to go in this direction. The ANTZ rhetoric is they chose to do it solely because they are greedy. Perhaps there is degree of truth to that. But what I found is they chose to put additional chemicals in the product because regulators around 1960 were saying that tar kills / harms irreparably. So, they sought to monkey around with the product by lowering that and upping nicotine so users would feel the same effects they've come to enjoy in a brand they've been loyal to for decades. They were trying to get ahead of the curve by adjusting their products with what they saw as likely regulations coming about that address tar levels. They were, in essence, trying to create a healthier cigarette. But the ANTZ spin was essentially set up as whatever you do, however you manufacture or distribute your product, we will attack you. You are literally damned by whatever action you take right now. The best only thing you can do right now to appease us is to stop selling your product. Everything else, we will attack you on, and we intend on winning.

Put your self in the shoes of ANTZ for a moment, is there anything about a PV, including eLiquid, that you would say is not open to attack?

Same tactics will be employed. Or already are.