Slow Cooker Extraction of Tobacco and Tea

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scarf-ace

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Lavaca, that is a very interesting thought. The thing is though, with tea you are steeping the leaves in water. VG and even PG are much more viscous and might not flow properly through the ball. I guess you will just have to try it out and let us know :D
 

StereoDreamer

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Has anyone tried or considered using a steeping bag or even a tea ball to hold the tobacco? Basically, we're just talking about brewing tobacco tea, right? Seems like a steeping bag would make the filtering MUCH faster since most of the plant matter would be contained. I'm just wondering if the bag would absorb too much of the oils or resins or whatever it is that carries the flavor in tobacco. Anyone have any experience or thoughts on this?


I'm going to agree with "scarf-ace" on this one. Having made many perfumes and essential oils when I was much younger, I can attest to the lack of effectiveness and efficiency in steeping solid materiials in thick liquids using tea balls or steeping bags. It just doesn't work well, because the fluid dynamics of viscous fluids is dramatically different than water or alcohol. VG or PG, even when warmed up, just don't flow like water or alcohol, and the tobacco is going to clump up inside a tea ball or bag, and you're not going to get very efficient extraction.

At least that is my experience from making oils and perfumes. I've steeped things like cinnamon, cloves, lavender, chamolile, iris root, rose petals an all sorts of herbs in oil (hempseed oil, almond oil, and olive oil) and you get MUCH better extractions when you do it loose and stir it up occasionally, rather than using a bag or ball.

I strained my mixtures using a coffee press, and it got most of the solids out. I think most of the thing that was slowing down the filtering through the paper filters was tars, large-molecule alkaloids, oils and resins, and sugars. It's ot solid plant material that is slowing down the paper filtering--it is large molecules and sticky substances, which are not going to be kept out of the solution by a tea ball or mesh bag.

I don' tmind taking two or three days to strain my NETs. Some things take time, and I'm cool with that. The slow process makes it more of a "hand-crafted" product, and that is part of what appeals to me about this experiment!
 

scarf-ace

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Mr Mann posted this document in the Natural Tobaccos thread in the General ELiquid Forum, and it is a right treasure trove of tobacco information:

Milton M. Sherman has spent more

Mandatory reading for anyone interested in learning more about this plant.
 

Trick

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Well, here goes nothing.

The blend's called Golden Paramont and comes from a local tobacconist. Here it is in mason jar full of VG, ready for its first slow-cooker bath. I'm really excited to see what comes out of this. And yes, I confess I actually used that pipe for the first time in the 20+ years I've had it, just to get some kind of an idea what I was working with. Under the circumstances I'm having a hard time feeling guilty about having fallen back on smoking for a few minutes.

001.jpg
 

Lavaca5

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Lavaca, that is a very interesting thought. The thing is though, with tea you are steeping the leaves in water. VG and even PG are much more viscous and might not flow properly through the ball. I guess you will just have to try it out and let us know :D

I'm going to agree with "scarf-ace" on this one. Having made many perfumes and essential oils when I was much younger, I can attest to the lack of effectiveness and efficiency in steeping solid materiials in thick liquids using tea balls or steeping bags. It just doesn't work well, because the fluid dynamics of viscous fluids is dramatically different than water or alcohol. VG or PG, even when warmed up, just don't flow like water or alcohol, and the tobacco is going to clump up inside a tea ball or bag, and you're not going to get very efficient extraction.

At least that is my experience from making oils and perfumes. I've steeped things like cinnamon, cloves, lavender, chamolile, iris root, rose petals an all sorts of herbs in oil (hempseed oil, almond oil, and olive oil) and you get MUCH better extractions when you do it loose and stir it up occasionally, rather than using a bag or ball.

I strained my mixtures using a coffee press, and it got most of the solids out. I think most of the thing that was slowing down the filtering through the paper filters was tars, large-molecule alkaloids, oils and resins, and sugars. It's ot solid plant material that is slowing down the paper filtering--it is large molecules and sticky substances, which are not going to be kept out of the solution by a tea ball or mesh bag.

I don' tmind taking two or three days to strain my NETs. Some things take time, and I'm cool with that. The slow process makes it more of a "hand-crafted" product, and that is part of what appeals to me about this experiment!

Oh well. I suppose if it were that easy, there wouldn't be any sport in it. I think I've finally settled on Mac Baren Navy Flake as my first experiment. The Honey Chocolate sounds really interesting, but I think the Navy might be lighter / less intense. Not knowing a great deal about pipe tobacco, I think it would be best to start at the lighter / lesser end of the spectrum and work my way toward the dark and dense. I haven't placed my order yet, so if either of you is familiar with this tobacco, I would appreciate some input as to whether my perception of it is accurate.
 

Trick

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I've been a night-owl lately, and the batch of golden cavendish has been perking for about 36 hours. Based on Scarf's timing, I figured it should be about ready for this part:

003.jpg


Cooking with the lid on really seems to have watered down the VG -- which I may have used a bit too much of, because there's going to be a ton of juice coming out of this. And I thought about using a rubber band to hold the filter, but duct tape just really gave the whole thing a more home-concocted feel to me.

The extract looks a bit lighter in this image than it actually is. The stuff looks like strong espresso.
 

Trick

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So, as I suspected, I overdid the VG (a mistake that I will not be making with the Golden Cavendish/Black Cavendish/Fire-Cured blend that has taken its place in the trusty Crock Pot).

However, all is not lost. While I may not have come out with a particularly strong extract, what I got instead was a nearly-zero nicotine (I assume), 100% VG juice that's very vapable right out of the duct-taped tumbler. Actually, "vapable" isn't the right word for it... it's really good. The flavor of the original tobacco has translated quite nicely into a woody, nutty, slightly spicy juice with a touch of sweetness to it. It actually reminds me to a certain extent of HHV's Pirate's Booty, which I consider a very good thing. If I'd bought this stuff from someone, I'd buy more of it.

What I'm hoping is that it'll get a little stronger if I let it steep a while -- right now I'm concerned that if I thinned it with nic juice, that it wouldn't be as good. But even if I just have to leave this first batch as is, I'm going to call it a major success, and consider the lack of nicotine a lesson learned.

As I was typing that, I took another pull from the carto I'd filled (I was too lazy to clean out one of the drippers to try it)... and the Provari is now throwing an E1 error within a split-second of hitting the button. Not surprising, since my experience of 100% VG juices in cartos has not been good. It's also very possible that there's a decent amount of water still in the juice at this point, which may have shorted the coil. If water caused it, hopefully steeping it in some smaller containers will take care of that before too long.

So, off into little bottles with my Golden Cavendish for steeping.

Scarf -- this thread was a gift. I'm going to have a lot of fun with this, and I've already got (a quite large amount of) one good juice out of it. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and making it easy to do something like this. I'm sure I'm not the only one who really appreciates it.
 

StereoDreamer

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So, as I suspected, I overdid the VG (a mistake that I will not be making with the Golden Cavendish/Black Cavendish/Fire-Cured blend that has taken its place in the trusty Crock Pot).

However, all is not lost. While I may not have come out with a particularly strong extract, what I got instead was a nearly-zero nicotine (I assume), 100% VG juice that's very vapable right out of the duct-taped tumbler.


It may not be a total loss. You might consider using it as a flavoring anyway, and build a more complex flavoring from it, using commercial tobacco flavorings, something sweet or nutty, and maybe a strong, tart fruit like raspberry or cherry or something.

I'm not planning to use my thick gooey extract as a "mono-flavor" (although it IS very good that way). I'm planning to use it as a base flavor, and building on top of it with other flavors.

Just a thought...
 

Trick

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It may not be a total loss. You might consider using it as a flavoring anyway, and build a more complex flavoring from it, using commercial tobacco flavorings, something sweet or nutty, and maybe a strong, tart fruit like raspberry or cherry or something.

Good point. It may just make a really good base for the results of my other little extraction experiment...

fruit.jpg


It's going to be a while before those are ready, though. :)
 

MsMacgyver

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Not sure if this question is answered somewhere but here goes. I'm thinking about extracting in VG...my problem is I'm sensitive to PG, the alcohol and some sweetners alot of vendors use...makes me wheeze. Tell me if I'm wrong but you need some sort of preservative for the extracted juice. Most use alcohol but I think some use citric acid. Does anyone have thoughts on this...can you use citric acid to preserve extracted juice and how much would you use?
 

LucentShadow

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Not sure if this question is answered somewhere but here goes. I'm thinking about extracting in VG...my problem is I'm sensitive to PG, the alcohol and some sweetners alot of vendors use...makes me wheeze. Tell me if I'm wrong but you need some sort of preservative for the extracted juice. Most use alcohol but I think some use citric acid. Does anyone have thoughts on this...can you use citric acid to preserve extracted juice and how much would you use?

VG and PG are both preservatives. While it's not quite as harsh as alcohol, VG has been used by many as a solvent and preservative for tinctures and extracts. From what I gather, it may preserve better if it's less hydrous, so keeping it from absorbing the water in the cooker may help it last longer.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/liquid-extraction-tobacco/99774-vg-pipe-tobacco-essense.html

I know that as I followed the thread linked to above, Kurt spoke of having his VG extract for months with no problems, and he's a chemist.

I expect that I'll be trying this with VG when I get around to it.

One tip that I might add, is that keeping the VG warm speeds up the process of straining it. That's not easy to do, at least with what I had on hand when I tried Kurt's method, but it would seem to be easy in a crock pot... :)

Good thread.
 

Trick

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Just going to pat myself on the back a little.

My second batch of three was a cavendish/fire cured blend on a three-day cook that came out beautifully. If the first batch is any indication, it's going to be even better after steeping for a little bit. Anyway, I threw a little into a bottle to make a 60/40 12mg juice out of it, and then decided it might be good with just a little fruitiness, and added a few drops of my heretofore untested homemade blueberry extract.

Holy crap, is this stuff good. :)
 

scarf-ace

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Trick, did you cook the blueberries? Did you use fresh or dried?

My banana extraction using organic dried bananas was all kinds of tasty but caramelized my atomizers badly. I need to figure out how to fix that because it was fantastically good.
 

Trick

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Trick, did you cook the blueberries? Did you use fresh or dried?

My banana extraction using organic dried bananas was all kinds of tasty but caramelized my atomizers badly. I need to figure out how to fix that because it was fantastically good.

Fresh blueberries, and just used an old-fashioned alcohol extraction on them with no cooking. Just sort of mooshed them up a little and threw 'em in a mason jar full of 100-proof vodka for a while. Only took a couple weeks before I got what I have now, though I'm sure it needs more time. Only getting a very slight hint of blueberry with it, but that works for this juice.
 
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scarf-ace

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Fresh blueberries, and just used an old-fashioned alcohol extraction on them with no cooking. Just sort of mooshed them up a little and threw 'em in a mason jar full of 100-proof vodka for a while. Only took a couple weeks before I got what I have now, though I'm sure it needs more time. Only getting a very slight hint of blueberry with it, but that works for this juice.

Do post back if the sugar becomes a problem for your equipment.
 

RAWRasaurus

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I've been subscribed to this thread for a weak now and I'm so glad i've found it!

So much inspiration in trying my own extractions!

Just started diy juices and I'm hooked on the limitless possibilities... thinking about grabbing some filtering flasks and a sink asperator to help with the filtering process...

will definitely post back with results
 

Trick

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So, my first foray into fruit. Scarf had recommended dried bananas as being something that worked, but all the grocery store had were fresh bananas, and green ones at that. "No problem," I thought. "I'll try oranges instead."

Now, I'll preface this by saying that I haven't actually tasted the result of my orange's three-day PG bath, but I will tell you that what came out of that slow-cooker was a liquid that looks like the soiling of a baby's diaper and smells much, much worse. Not some crisp, tangy citrus aroma but a cloying, foul stench not unlike something that just crawled forth from Carmen Miranda's grave. My two-week old alcohol extraction smells wonderful, like a fresh navel orange with a slight sprinkling of vodka. This stuff most certainly does not.

I will, of course, have to taste it after it's done filtering, but I'm very afraid.
 

CarbonThief

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Good luck with that Trick! Who knows, perhaps the smell of the extract belies the fact that it might be rather tasty! Let's hope, otherwise, you might be vomiting tonight.

In other extract news, I am currently on my final slow cook, #3, started about 2 hours ago, and will go for another 6. For some reason, I decided to do a 12 hour cook, cool down, 10 hour cook, cool down, then a third cook for 8 hours, just to see how it turns out. Growing impatient (already, and boy does this not bode well for me and DIY extracts!), I decided I wanted to sample one of the three coconut tobacco hybrids (if that is the proper term) between step 2 and 3, then compare it with the extract after the third cook. I realize I SHOULD have also taken some off after the first cook, but oh well, next time for sure.

I mixed up 10 mLs of a 70/30 PG/VG, 20+mg juice (the + denotes that the extract itself adds some amount of nicotine to the final juice, my target was ~20 mg using unflavored PG nic base at 60 mg concentration). I used 3.5 mL of extract, 3.5 mL of the nic PG base, and 3 mL of VG. I expected the extract to be too heavy, and that further dilution might be required, but was going for fast and simple.

I'm VERY pleasantly surprised with this vape. Being my very first DIY juice, my first tobacco extract, and the fact that on a whim I decided to mix the tobacco (black cavendish is the one that I am sampling tonight) with fresh grated coconut, which I've never had, nor even heard of, I half expected this to be a miserable failure, and half expected that it would just not be very good. In my opinion, this is really quite GOOD! To me, the tobacco is very prominent at the front and on exhale, and the coconut packs a punch in between, with kind of a toasted coconut flavor. I feel the coconut is a little stronger than I had hoped, which also surprises me, as I figured if it was present at all, it would be quite subtle after diluting it to 1/3.

Now I could reduce the coconut flavor obviously by using less extract, maybe 15 to 20 % final concentration, but I must say, I wouldn't want to dilute the tobacco flavor at all. It will be interesting to see how the other two tobaccos work with the coconut flavor, as well as the same three (black cavendish as previously mentioned, Tin Star "Gold" pipe tobacco, and a "secret" tobacco to be disclosed at a later time, if it isn't a complete failure) I have going in a no-heat, PG soak which I plan to let sit for a month. I anticipate the non-heat method will not release the essential coconut oils as thoroughly and will likely have a more subtle coconut flavor, though likely also a more subtle tobacco flavor, which I may not prefer. If the slow cooker method works as well, or even better than the slower soak method, I will just use less coconut next time (2 Tbsp rather than a 1/4 cup for instance).

Interestingly, my wife, who has vaped but is not a vaper, nor a smoker anymore, tried it and said she definitely gets the tobacco flavor, but does not detect the coconut! It's possible expecting a coconut flavor is acting a bit as a placebo effect on me, possible that it is indeed subtle like I was hoping for, or not even noticeably present...I just don't know, but sure seems to be there!

Also, it will be interesting to see how these juices, especially mixed as high as 35%, work on my coils.

Bottom line though, I am digging this first attempt, and am hoping future attempts get even better!

Feedback, comments, suggestions are quite welcome!
 
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