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Smoking Everywhere V. FDA Daily Docket Sheet Update--APPEAL's COURT ISSUES STAY

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Sun Vaporer

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Any chance of a surprise appearance at the hearing tomorrow? Appearing as a witness for the plaintiff or some such?


Ill--No--tommorow is strictley oral argument between Counsel for SE and njoy, the FDA, and Judge Leon. It is oral argument on the Motion and the Judge wants to hear the parties on the Suplemental Briefs they filed regarding which statutory scheme is the approprate one in the case at bar.

Sun
 

Sun Vaporer

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I dont understand why the ECA are not acting. They took donations and promised to help keep these e-cigs available. Well they went half way and it sickens me that they took these peoples donations and haven't worked with the FDA or any interest groups that are against the E-cigs...Instead they're writing letters saying how wrong the reports are.....thats not what the ECA was made for. There purpose is to work with everyone to come up with some kind of agreement and make sure these manufacturers are keeping up with standard quality control. Correct me if im wrong though.


Exactly Grimmer---and it begs the question what they are doing or should I say refraining from doing. Since the head of njoy is the head of the ECA, are they shutting their mouths because that is what njoy wants them to do---is this in the best interest of just NJOY?--

Sun
 

grimmer255

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somewhere out there......
Njoy, SE, and some others there products are garbage and outdated. Im going to be honest I hate those companies. Yes SE and Njoy got the word out but they've destroyed the e-cig image. But SE did a better job of doing it.

But if ecigs go under so does Njoy. Then there wont be any interests or any money for them. So why are they holding the ECA back? This situation makes no since its like a double edge sword.
 

girlwithnolife

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Mar 23, 2009
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I'm so mad about this crap I can't see straight. I just fired off a letter to the FDA although it won't do anything but let me vent. I am a happy e smoker and wanna be supplier but am waiting and watching. What, are we now a communist country. The big companies run the US? I think so! I am close to Wash, DC and if there is anything that any 1 thinks I can do to help please let me know. I have already wrote to my congressmen, etc. When I feel that my rights are being stepped on I will fight to the death. lol Anything I can do, please let me know. Thanks, Steph
 

Sun Vaporer

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Njoy, SE, and some others there products are garbage and outdated. Im going to be honest I hate those companies. Yes SE and Njoy got the word out but they've destroyed the e-cig image. But SE did a better job of doing it.

But if ecigs go under so does Njoy. Then there wont be any interests or any money for them. So why are they holding the ECA back? This situation makes no since its like a double edge sword.


Gimmer, why would NJOY hold others back? I could think of many reasons. They have their vested interests, and rightfully so. But I was under the impression that the ECA was about the industry and not just one company. We can only hope that NJOY is doing right by the industry, but then again, as you point out, that is what the ECA's mission is or was. We are not in privy to NJOY's position, and that is only fair as busniess is business---but the ECA really should not be keeping us out or in the dark.

Sun
 

lotus14

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Seems this has turned into an ECA thread lately.

Sun:
What do you think Judge Leon is going to question the parties about tomorrow? The plaintiffs claim e-cigs are a tobacco product and if Judge Leon finds that they are - very doubtful. Even if he does, the recent legislation gives the FDA the right to regulate them - and control the still unknown ingredients due to the manufacturer's failure to have sufficient independent testing done.

This would mean that every product sold would have to independently tested and the results submitted to the FDA for approval. The same holds true if they are found to be a "reduced harm" device - testing must be done to prove reduced harm.

The worst case would be if the FDA is allowed to consider them an NRT, a position which I think is untenable. Intended Use by most vapers is NOT to treat the "disease" of nicotine addiction - it is to find a safer alternative to tobacco cigarettes. So we're back to a reduced harm product.

So what do you see as the possible/likely rulings that Judge Leon could make?
 

Sun Vaporer

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Seems this has turned into an ECA thread lately.

Sun:
What do you think Judge Leon is going to question the parties about tomorrow? The plaintiffs claim e-cigs are a tobacco product and if Judge Leon finds that they are - very doubtful. Even if he does, the recent legislation gives the FDA the right to regulate them - and control the still unknown ingredients due to the manufacturer's failure to have sufficient independent testing done.

This would mean that every product sold would have to independently tested and the results submitted to the FDA for approval. The same holds true if they are found to be a "reduced harm" device - testing must be done to prove reduced harm.

The worst case would be if the FDA is allowed to consider them an NRT, a position which I think is untenable. Intended Use by most vapers is NOT to treat the "disease" of nicotine addiction - it is to find a safer alternative to tobacco cigarettes. So we're back to a reduced harm product.

So what do you see as the possible/likely rulings that Judge Leon could make?


Lotus--the Judge is going to what to hear arguments about the two differnent statutory schemes that he could rule under. Judge Leon is can rule under either or a combination thereof.

Remember the standard for a preliminary injunction:

There must be a demonstration all four elements here:
  1. That there is a substantial likelihood of success on the merits of the case,
  2. That they face a substantial threat of irreparable damage or injury. if the injunction is not granted,
  3. That the balance of harms weighs in favor of the party seeking the preliminary injunction
  4. That the grant of an injunction would serve the public interest.
The "balance of harms" refers to the threatened injury to the party seeking the preliminary injunction as compared to the harm that the other party may suffer from the injunction.


In the instant case, SE and NJOY have the tall order of establishing that they are likely to succeed on the merits, and that they are likely to suffer irreparable harm in the absence of preliminary relief, that the balance of equities tips in their favor, and that an injunction is in the public interest

Based on the facts, Counsel for SE and NJOY have a steep hill to climb to meet the first, third, and fouth prongs.

Futhermore, the "indented use' for the e-cig is to mitigate the damage of using tobacco--------and mitigation means regulation.


Sun
 

Sun Vaporer

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Anybody know how long it would take and how much it would cost to go through the approval process?

TC


TC--the numbers out there are all over the place, but it would be no higher then any other drug but out to market. You what to attend the party, you have to buy a ticket and the ticket here is showing viable saftey data and getting approval.

Sun
 

Sun Vaporer

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As for the EFC filing a brief--the notion was first advanced here in a conversation I had with Nitewirter and Smilin back in April:----looks like it was never to be:

04-30-2009, 02:38 AM #203 SMILIN
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8-o Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Vaporer
Nitewriter--Absent hiring Counsel, it would need to be done Pro Se---problem is who--as we are not an orginzation. You need an enity--either a person, corporation, or reckonized orginization to file Pro Se and we, collectively do not fit in that catagory as members of a Forum---not to say that we could not try. But then you have to Motion the Court to be heard to as to why they should entertain us and request permission file. If it is granted, then a pleading would have to be drafted in proper form to be submitted. ---Sun

Wonder if Lacy's Group is Viable--but I do not know the status of it---Sun


No ECA yet, I been waiting, for weeks8-o
 

Sun Vaporer

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Sun,

Do you think Judge Leon could force the involved parties to come to a settlement/compromise rather than ruling on one side or the other?


Territoo--Judge Leon can strongly encourage parties to consider a settlement, but with this fact pattern, I do not see this happening at this stage of the litigation. I wish they would for our sake.

Sun
 

Webby

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Mar 31, 2009
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Totally agree. But putting the regulations at such high standards so that only the "big boys" can play? Well... guess what... there goes 99.9% of the suppliers who participate on this forum. Yep. You think ANY of us can actually pay to play in that kind of game? Nope. Can't.

Therin lies the rub...

Lacey, I really like you and without Sun's input these threads would have degenerated into more speculation than they already have. My hat is off to both of you for everything you've done.

<Webby Rant>

Our self-appointed "spokesmen" have done little (IMHO) but sit on their collective soapboxes, turtle waxing their genetalia and issuing press releases.

Those of us with the most to lose (suppliers/users) sit here preaching to each other the same rhetoric, while ASH and the FDA are busily burning through toner, filing briefs and stamping out fresh bullets.

I don't know that I buy into the fact that SE and Njoy are truly businesses that are in it for the long haul. They are nothing more than carpet baggers who made their $ on overpriced $16 PVs. The way I see it, they put up a legal speedbump front and have pontificated just long enough to ease into some exit strategy we have yet to see. When the proverbial sh*t finally hits the fan, they will fold up their tents and fade away leaving one million PV users in the dust and a bad taste in the public's mouth.

</Webby Rant>
 
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eric

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Therin lies the rub...

Lacey, I really like you and without Sun's input these threads would have degenerated into more speculation than they already have. My hat is off to both of you for everything you've done.

<Webby Rant>

Our self-appointed "spokesmen" have done little (IMHO) but sit on their collective soapboxes, turtle waxing their genetalia and issuing press releases.

Those of us with the most to lose (suppliers/users) sit here preaching to each other the same rhetoric, while ASH and the FDA are busily burning through toner, filing briefs and stamping out fresh bullets.

I don't know that I buy into the fact that SE and Njoy are truly businesses that are in it for the long haul. They are nothing more than carpet baggers who made their $ on overpriced $16 PVs. The way I see it, they put up a legal speedbump front and have pontificated just long enough to ease into some exit strategy we have yet to see. When the proverbial sh*t finally hits the fan, they will fold up their tents and fade away leaving one million PV users in the dust.

</Webby Rant>

I don't know about all that, my friend.

If Njoy and SE had any intention of just packing up and getting out of Dodge with lined pockets, this thread would have never been started to begin with. I think Njoy has something up their sleeve for tomorrow. Perhaps the actual lab test results?
 

deewal

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Aug 30, 2008
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In a house.
<Webby Rant>

Our self-appointed "spokesmen" have done little (IMHO) but sit on their collective soapboxes, turtle waxing their genetalia and issuing press releases.

Those of us with the most to lose (suppliers/users) sit here preaching to each other the same rhetoric, while ASH and the FDA are busily burning through toner, filing briefs and stamping out fresh bullets.

I don't know that I buy into the fact that SE and Njoy are truly businesses that are in it for the long haul. They are nothing more than carpet baggers who made their $ on overpriced $16 PVs. The way I see it, they put up a legal speedbump front and have pontificated just long enough to ease into some exit strategy we have yet to see. When the proverbial sh*t finally hits the fan, they will fold up their tents and fade away leaving one million PV users in the dust and a bad taste in the public's mouth.

</Webby Rant>
Agreed.
I refer the Right Honorable Gentleman to my post http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...a-daily-docket-sheet-update-4.html#post496887
 

Webby

Resting In Peace
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Mar 31, 2009
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I don't know about all that, my friend.

If Njoy and SE had any intention of just packing up and getting out of Dodge with lined pockets, this thread would have never been started to begin with. I think Njoy has something up their sleeve for tomorrow. Perhaps the actual lab test results?

Eric,

I sure hope you're right, and I'll be the first to bust open a 50ml bottle of "Private Reserve" and pass vapes all around...

...you have to admit that all the manufacturers, advocacy groups and big boy resellers have had months to speak up and have been unsupportively mum on the media assault thus far.

If they DO have a rabbit to pull, it better be every inch of six feet tall and "Harvey" has to be more than invisible at this point...
 
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