So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[hittman]

BCB, the same things went thru my head before I tried it. It is worth it to just know for yourself that there is something better that can be made available. I've been snusing long enough now that it would be difficult to give up snus for any liquid. I do really enjoy it.

 

[BCB]

Yeah, I thought for a whole day before I asked to be included on the wish list. Unfortunately, I don't like the snus except for what it gives me that I need. I'd drop it in a New York minute if I could get what I need from e-liquid. I've even been thinking of trying Tropical Bob's snus in a cartomizer method, but have no spare time to play around with it.

 

[hittman]

I don't blame you there. I don't have a whole lot of patience for fooling around with all that stuff either. Speaking of T-bob, I wonder where he's been. I haven't seen him on the forum in quite some time.

 

[kristin]

Yeah, I thought for a whole day before I asked to be included on the wish list. Unfortunately, I don't like the snus except for what it gives me that I need. I'd drop it in a New York minute if I could get what I need from e-liquid. I've even been thinking of trying Tropical Bob's snus in a cartomizer method, but have no spare time to play around with it.

It will be interesting once Orbs and strips are more widely available. I wonder if they kept the MAOIs? I think women would prefer those over the snus pouches. It could be a good combination.

 

[DVap]

If this happens with the WTA, then I'm not really looking at any "list". I'd be inclined to find out who wants some, get some sort of confirmation to that effect, split the batch evenly, get paid for the materials/work, and get it out there.

And maybe, just maybe, someone with an entrepreneurial spirit would sit up, take notice, and realize that there's something to this?

 

[Stubby]

It will be interesting once Orbs and strips are more widely available. I wonder if they kept the MAOIs? I think women would prefer those over the snus pouches. It could be a good combination.

The other alternative to Orbs and Strips are Ariva and Stonewalls by Star Scientific, and yes they do have the MAOI's. It's a dissolvable like the camel stuff. In fact if my memory serves me right DVap did an extraction using Stonewalls. I think it's a bit lower then snus but then the strongest version, the Stonewalls, are only 4mg nicotine as with snus the skies the limit (18mg). You can order them at lil' brown shack

https://www.lilbrown.com/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx

 

[hittman]

BCB, I hadn't thought of it until Stubby brought it up here but if you are getting by with the mini mints then maybe the stonewalls would do the trick for you. They are fairly inexpensive. I think it's $13.50 for five packs. Might be another alternative for you. I have tried them and the flavor of the java is pretty good but I actually prefer snus.

 

[tescela]

If this happens with the WTA, then I'm not really looking at any "list". I'd be inclined to find out who wants some, get some sort of confirmation to that effect, split the batch evenly, get paid for the materials/work, and get it out there.

It is encouraging to hear that Dvap is at least considering producing a relatively large batch for (hopefully strategic) distribution. Meanwhile, tceight is independently making important progress.

And maybe, just maybe, someone with an entrepreneurial spirit would sit up, take notice, and realize that there's something to this?

This is the key. This is proof of concept stage. Get WTA eliquid into the hands of vaping opinion leaders, and the rest will take care of itself. For example, look at how vapers piled in paying a premium for some other specific brand eliquids once some prominent vapers switched to them and began evangelizing about their superiority. Sales rose exponentially, and this was for eliquids that incorporated incremental improvements, whereas WTA eliquid would represents a quantum leap forward.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

This is the key. This is proof of concept stage. Get WTA eliquid into the hands of vaping opinion leaders, and the rest will take care of itself. For example, look at how vapers piled in paying a premium for some other specific brand eliquids once some prominent vapers switched to them and began evangelizing about their superiority. Sales rose exponentially, and this was for eliquids that incorporated incremental improvements, whereas WTA eliquid would represents a quantum leap forward.

I think that's the place to start...create a demand that can overshadow price points. Not an easy task in these days of dirt-cheap eliquids. The biggest obstacle I see is in getting a manufacturer to see the light in modifying their process. That I know of, no vendors make their own nicotine from scratch. It's too cost prohibitive and dangerous. They just do the flavoring and labeling of it. I don't know if the PV world is big enough...yet...to sway a manufacturer, but if or when it is I feel it would be a very profitable venture as well as a fuse that would ignite a boom of PV sales. Although I rarely use a PV since I've gone to the Dark Side, I'm a strong advocate of WTA as much now as when Dvap first blessed me with his early batch of witch's brew. It's as close to a smoke as there'll ever be without lighting a real one and that's what most vapers want, not to mention it can more easily replace smokes than regular liquids .

 

[DVap]

I'm even now messing with a few very small batches to try to get a handle on improvements I can identify that will allow larger batches to become more practical.

In the past, practicality wasn't so much the goal as isolating WTA's at whatever cost. This is simply because the issue has changed between then and now. The question was, "would this stuff work?", and with that question answered in the affirmative, the question becomes, "Can I find a more cost-effective way to make this stuff?".

The first question had to be answered for the second question to even matter. After answering the first question, I went through a long period of "exhaustion" where I didn't want a whole lot to do with the whole issue. When it comes to processes like this, there is always a better way, and indeed many "industrial processes" have multiple and competing approaches with their own relative advantages and disadvantages.

A lot of the stuff I haven't tried, I haven't tried because either I've not had specific equipment to do so, or I would never set it up at home due to one practical/safety consideration or another.

I've just a couple days ago gotten a small 10 mL batch of what is probably my best yet 30 mg WTA into the hands of someone who is in a fair position to, as Vic said, help lead opinion. Look for it, coming soon.

Ultimately, there's probably a lot of money to be made on the WTA approach to vaping, and once the dam breaks, I'm smart enough to know that if I were in the fray trying to get my "piece of the pie", I would be squeezed out by other far more entrepreneurial types before too long. For me, it's a comfortable position to not be sitting here with dollar signs ringing in my eyes, but instead to simply push the whole notion toward "critical mass" where the entrepreneurial types out there can no longer resist the lure of the almighty dollar and are willing to handle the headaches of a hostile and compromised FDA which is still in denial that the courts are refusing to go along with them on the whole tobacco product vs drug thing.

Funny how, having made their bed alongside BP and BT, the FDA doesn't want to lie in it now... or rather the FDA doesn't want to welcome vapers along in the spot they carved out for BT. It's a good lesson in unintended consequences for the FDA about sleeping with the enemy. "You vapors sleep over there with BP!", says the FDA, but we decline and curl up alongside BT instead while the courts smile down on us.

 

[BCB]

Kristen: I agree that probably women are less interested in snus pouches generally and would welcome smaller delivery systems.

Stubby: I understand your response to be that Stonewalls and Ariva have the MAOI's but Orbs and strips do not. Is that accurate? Thanks for the tip on the Lil'Brown Smoke Shack. They have free shipping w/UPS in January if anyone needs to order.

Hittman: Thanks for the tip. I re-read old threads and realized I dropped that ball when PACT denied USPS shipping since that's really the only good way for me to get mail (right now walking 1/2 mile thru snow/ice to get to the closest place I can park my car that's accessible--FedEx guys would just laugh at me and drive away). I'll call their site next week and see if they're sold anywhere around here.

DVap, Tescela, tceight, TV, Kinabalo, all contributors: thanks for inspiration.

 

[Stubby]

Kristen: I agree that probably women are less interested in snus pouches generally and would welcome smaller delivery systems.

Stubby: I understand your response to be that Stonewalls and Ariva have the MAOI's but Orbs and strips do not. Is that accurate? Thanks for the tip on the Lil'Brown Smoke Shack. They have free shipping w/UPS in January if anyone needs to order.

This is a review by TB on dissolvables

YouTube - TropBobB's Channel

Not sure about the WTA in the Camel but I would have to assume that it is there. How much I don't know. It's academic at this point as they where only in test markets and have recently been removed from the market by RJR. Would have liked to try the sticks as they look interesting but they never showed up in my area.

 

[exogenesis]

Good to see you're going onward with this DVap, I hope at some future point all your hard work will bear more directly rewarding fruit.

..snip..

In the past, practicality wasn't so much the goal as isolating WTA's at whatever cost. This is simply because the issue has changed between then and now. The question was, "would this stuff work?", and with that question answered in the affirmative, the question becomes, "Can I find a more cost-effective way to make this stuff?".

The first question had to be answered for the second question to even matter. After answering the first question, I went through a long period of "exhaustion" where I didn't want a whole lot to do with the whole issue. When it comes to processes like this, there is always a better way, and indeed many "industrial processes" have multiple and competing approaches with their own relative advantages and disadvantages.

..snip..

I think that's the crux for a commercial process.
i.e. quite possibly a bulk-scale process wouldn't use your solid-adsorbant approach,
more likely e.g. supercritical CO2 techniques, like they use for caffeine extraction :
Supercritical carbon dioxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and possibly even for commercial nicotine (?)
Or maybe some other controllable 'continuous' process.

When I part-seriously asked a/the UK leading nicotine manufacturer (who supply for ecig juice) if they would consider a process on their 'waste stream'
(i.e. containing all the goodies in WTA) with a view to creating 'synthetic WTA snus' -
I got a "we're interested" & an invite to the factory.
But then I got cold feet - no business man me

So it shows that there is commercial interest, but it ain't gonna come to you...
Step up go-getting entrepreneur TV (only kidding)

 

[kinabaloo]

I argued vigorously that e-liquid was clearly a tobacco product and not a drug and the courts in the US agreed. No different for WTA as I have said before.

Ultimately only force of numbers will win the day for safer alternatives, so it is important we help create as many converts as possible as quickly as possible. And WTA would help that significantly.

Good news that the UK nic company were interested ... They are however more a supplier than a finished product producer, as I understand it; but who knows what could happen.

 

[DVap]

I've been a huge fan of supercritical CO2 for 20 years now even though I've never once had an opportunity to fool around with it. If I'm going to scale up within my own capabilities, it'll likely be via a continuous process.

 

[Kurt]

And the winner of DVap's latest WTA is....ME!! So here is my review as a chemist and a vaping vet.

Visuals. OMG the stuff is almost without color! To start with tobacco leaf and get something this colorless (its VERY slightly yellow and clear) is no small feat. DVap has been kind enough to give me some of the organic chemistry extraction tricks he used, and I think it safe to say that unless a vendor is an organic chemist with lots of equipment, vendors are not going to easily make this stuff. It takes $$ for the glassware, and years of experience in a wet lab to pull this off. And that doesn't count solvents and waste. This stuff was done with the solid support separation and filtration, as well as a new extraction trick (I only mention the solid support because exo obviously knows about it already...don't want to advertise too many trick, DVap!)

The stuff is about 63:35 VGG and 30 mg wta, according to DVap. I generally do not do PG at all, but I could not stop my hands from putting 4 drops on a 510 atty on my 5V PT.

Holy crap! Never got a TH like that from any juice before. TV is right, the TH is much more like a strong cigarette's. Tickles the nose a lot. Of course, I am used to no PG at all, so some of it could have been from PG, but it just seems to hit like 40+ mg.

Then the rush came. Its like the brain just goes "Oh, yeah..." Far more relaxing than only nic. More like how you feel after a cigar, and you've inhaled, but without the nasty taste in the mouth. Like a warm bath, rather than a jagged double espresso that 30 mg nic will be for me. Not as much ear-ringing either, but a little. I feel it in my forehead, like you do when sitting in a hot bath.

The taste is not like any unflavored I have had, which always has a little popcorn-like nic taste. This is more like faint honey, plus I do taste the PG, which for me is slightly flowery. No popcorn. Honey.

30 mg is a bit strong for me in general. I do around 15 mg most the time, or lower. So I mixed up a 12 mg juice from it with VG and distilled water and a touch of PA Bavarian Creme, my current favorite, and filled a carto. Now THAT is just remarkable! Still hits well, much more than a 12 mg juice I would make, and it just goes down far more like the real thing. that unmistakable taste (honey) is still there, and for me this is the best, truest vape I've ever had.

Nic alone was simply not doing it for me 100%. Most of the time it knocks it down from about 1.5 packs of Winston Lights a day to about 8. Snus got it down to 3, but clearly the hooks were in deep. Or I haven't tried hard enough. Dunno. Life has been pretty stressful and high-octane of late. Also, I am one of those that gets constipated wihtout a smoke every once in a while, and that has been a large part of not letting them go completely.

I got the WTA Friday night, and did not have my traditional real one before bed. Had 1/2 of real one all day yesterday, and had the other 1/2 this AM, and that's it. Whatever is in this WTA is doing a great job, and I have not even had my usual ration of snus.

Its hard to say exactly what it is, but you know this is not your usual vape from the first hit. I have to be careful with it, as if you do too much, you don't feel like you vaped nic too much, you feel like you smoked too much! Could be the PG, but the buzz is not like the usual all-nic vape. You feel far more satisfied and calm. And miraculously, it seems to have the same affect on getting things moving inside that a real one has. And this is huge for me.

Trust me when I say I agree with DVap about the effort and trying to make $$. I myself could do what he is doing, but it would require way too much time, effort, glassware, solvents, and waste clean up. If DVap started to try to do this for profit, the price of this little 10 mL bottle would be MUCH higher than even the priciest nic-juice. Even someone with the book know-how would need practice and time to get it right, with lots of steps where things can go wrong, and possibly terribly and dangerously wrong.

DVap, you are indeed a wizard...or a chemist!...same thing! Thank you so much for this, and I hope this gets us closer to that rich chemist out there that needs a new venture. This stuff is solid gold.

 

[kinabaloo]

Excellent news again ! A more like cigarette hit (minus bad after taste) and more relaxing. It's the real deal

This pizza has cheese on

"truest vape I've ever had" A more effective alternative to smoking - that's what it's all about.

A billion people puffing away on analogs ... crime of the century if this gets quashed ...

If I had the power, I'd call in BT and tell them that this is what they'll be making from now on. As it stands, they might want to do it, but for convoluted 'reasons' probably can't as things stand. But someone will, and soonish I feel, or at least hope). Maybe quite a few out there are quitely following this and related threads.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

DVap, you are indeed a wizard...or a chemist!...same thing! Thank you so much for this, and I hope this gets us closer to that rich chemist out there that needs a new venture. This stuff is solid gold.

I prefer "Dr. Voodoo". Not to let too many cats outta the bag, but I personally saw at least 3 shrunken heads floating in one of his cauldron's...

Your description is dead-on for the American Spirit WTA, honey sorta sweetness and only lightly colored. It takes well to just about any flavoring, but is an especially good base for those who prefer pastry or candy types of eliquids. On the other hand, his "ashtray" flavored WTA, rendered from pipe 'baccy, is da poo if you like the nastiness of a smoke without lingering after-taste and bad breath. And it definitely has the x-factor missing in other eliquids. It's what brought me back from insanity....or so they say .

 

[kinabaloo]

It's what brought me back from insanity....or so they say .

Oh, who was that ?

 

[DVap]

I think I mentioned that Vic's still crazy, but now it's the good kind...

After sending the WTA off to Kurt, I decided to see what would happen if I made WTA from a single pack of cigarettes. I bought a pack of NAS full flavor (blue label) and broke out the tobacco (18 grams). I did some procedural fooling around, but the bottom line was a yield of 0.22 grams of very clean tobacco alkaloids. This represents 1.2% of the starting mass. I feel like I should be getting closer to 2%, and perhaps a stronger tobacco would yield more, but I'm pretty partial to the NAS since I like the character of the resulting e-liquid.

So a pack worth of NAS is good for 7.3 mL of 30 mg WTA liquid.

I've presented the following before, but it was a long time ago, so I'll repeat it here:

Start with a pack of cigarettes and smoke it. You've just inhaled the smoke from 18 grams of tobacco (20 cigarettes) in order to get at the 220 mg of alkaloids contained within. But what's this? 90% of the alkaloids are destroyed so you're only getting 22 mg of alkaloids per 20 cigarettes or 1.1 mg per cigarette. Does that approximately 1 mg figure sound familiar? Oh yea, your lungs have just been treated to the nasty end-products of tobacco combustion.

Let's try something different. Let's separate that 220 mg of alkaloids from the tobacco, throw away the tobacco, and keep the alkaloids. Let's not suck in burning tobacco to get at the alkaloids, and lets not destroy 90% of those alkaloids in the process. Let's dilute those 220 mg of alkaloids to 7.3 mL with our preferred mix of PG/VG. We've just made 30 mg WTA e-liquid. We vape the liquid, we get the alkaloids, and we're happy for days with all the alkaloids and none of the tar from a pack of cigarettes, and we don't vape ourselves silly trying to get something that for some of us, no amount of nicotine alone can provide.

This is WTA.

Of course, snus works too, but some folks would choose the liquid given their choice.