I hear them. I remain unsure as to whether I am one of them. My dearest loved one is not unsure. Her voices all agree on this issue and that's something which I take very seriously.Don't you hear them, too??
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Need help from former MFS (MyFreedomSmokes) customers
Has any found a supplier or company that has tobacco e-juice like or very similar to MFS Turbosmog, Tall Paul, or Red Luck?
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So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine
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I second this, strong snus are good for some of us. I haven't found a snus that I actually like in terms of feel and flavor and I've tried a lot. Still, they work to calm me. The best for me so far is General Extra Sterk. Whatever they're doing to produce strong snus it works for me.
This discussion I will follow closely. We just had a noob in the German forums complaining about vaping not working (after 2 weeks) and suggesting to add chemicals to juice in order to get the same satisfactory feeling.
I disagreed (vigorously), because what is the use in making juice as toxic as cigarettes? And it's not like we weren't having enough PR and image problems in the media the way it is... add experimental chemicals to that and the ecig will die a sudden death.
Two weeks on vape, I am missing the real thing from time to time. I might have to just up my nic, though, at least have 24-30mg available when the need arises... I am on 18mg most of the day, 10mg when vaping a lot. But been off cigs altogether for 4 days now, and will probably cave today. Right now, if I need the hit, I just smoke 2-3 real ones over the day and not feel particularly guilty. A liquid would be preferred...
But. For the general public, it needs to be a liquid that can be vaped all day without negative effects... You can yell as much as you want to to handle it carefully, to not overdose, to bot go through 10ml a day... people won't listen.
We just had a noob in the German forums complaining about vaping not working (after 2 weeks) and suggesting to add chemicals to juice in order to get the same satisfactory feeling.I disagreed (vigorously), because what is the use in making juice as toxic as cigarettes? And it's not like we weren't having enough PR and image problems in the media the way it is... add experimental chemicals to that and the ecig will die a sudden death.
Two weeks on vape, I am missing the real thing from time to time. I might have to just up my nic, though, at least have 24-30mg available when the need arises... I am on 18mg most of the day, 10mg when vaping a lot. But been off cigs altogether for 4 days now, and will probably cave today. Right now, if I need the hit, I just smoke 2-3 real ones over the day and not feel particularly guilty. A liquid would be preferred...
But. For the general public, it needs to be a liquid that can be vaped all day without negative effects... You can yell as much as you want to to handle it carefully, to not overdose, to bot go through 10ml a day... people won't listen.
I am finding the talk of using snus to make WTA very interesting and thought I might put in my two cents. I have noticed how different stark or extra stark snus seem to hit me differently. For example the thunder berry seems like it dumps the goods fairly quickly compared to skruf es. If both are rated at about the same strength then I wonder what the difference is and how much it would matter which particular snus was chosen to use. I have noticed the same thing on some of the regular stark snus too. I don't know if this info really means anything or not but thought I would mention it.
This discussion I will follow closely.
I disagreed (vigorously), because what is the use in making juice as toxic as cigarettes? And it's not like we weren't having enough PR and image problems in the media the way it is... add experimental chemicals to that and the ecig will die a sudden death.
Two weeks on vape, I am missing the real thing from time to time. I might have to just up my nic, though, at least have 24-30mg available when the need arises... I am on 18mg most of the day, 10mg when vaping a lot. But been off cigs altogether for 4 days now, and will probably cave today. Right now, if I need the hit, I just smoke 2-3 real ones over the day and not feel particularly guilty. A liquid would be preferred...
But. For the general public, it needs to be a liquid that can be vaped all day without negative effects... You can yell as much as you want to to handle it carefully, to not overdose, to bot go through 10ml a day... people won't listen.
This is why the satiation that WTA gives is important as it does indeed seem to stop or at least limit the need/desire to chain/over vape.
While nicotine does stimulate production of dopamine and serotonin, without the MAOIs that help these linger, the effect is far smaller for nicotine alone than for analog smoke or WTA; and the overall effect is mostly just the nicotine buzz. Getting near satiation with just nicotine is a level of nicotine that is close to a level creating nausea. With nicotine only liquids, some people will be drawn to doing this in trying to get the same experience as they had with analogs but without much success.
The premise that smoking - both its pleasure and its hold - are just an effect of nicotine is (known to be) wrong.
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You are definitely right there kinabaloo. I know for a fact that if I had not been introduced to snus that I would be back to my old pack and a half a day by now. I can still chain vape 30-36mg liquids and feel basically no effect from it. However since I started using snus, my liquid consumption went from 3-4ml a day to probably around .5-1ml . I too noticed a marked decrease in my snus consumption when I used the WTA liquid regularly for a week or so. I truly believe that if the WTA liquid was widely available that it would help take a lot of the struggle out of not smoking for many people. I believe that there are many more people on this forum that struggle than we hear about. I think some believe that it is taboo to even utter a word to suggest that vaping is not the holy grail that is was belived to be.
I think this difference is just the difference in processing of the snus. I have found this too with OP 8-9 mg snus. General Mint tends to, most of the time, release its goods slower. Jakobsen tends to dump it all at once. But I think in an extraction there would be not a lot of difference in the WTAs of the two. Could be wrong, and this would assume that the two snuses (snusses?) are from the same tobacco, and this might not be the case. My point is that the extraction will capture the spectrum of the tobacco itself that is used, which may be a factor in how the snus does in the mouth, but there may be processing factors, such as pH or fineness of the ground tobacco, which affects its mouth-release properties.
As for fortifying for S and ES, it seems that while different parts of the leaf do contain different amounts of nic, with the most being closer to the stem, snus is actually fortified to make S and ES:
How is Sterk Made? [Archive] - SnusOn Snus Forum & Community
"the snusmaking kits I bought come with two packets of "NA 3 Carbonate". The instructions say to just use one unless you want strong nic.
Like many said though, it's a combination of multiple things IMO.
Here's another thread you might find usefull on this subject:
http://www.snuson.com/viewtopic.php?t=4729"
At least this is what one poster claimed, since snus kits actually come with extra nic to fortify it if wished. This seems like the smarter way to produce a standardized snus portion.
AFAIK it remains an unproven theory that this is the case to a degree which has any importance with the levels delivered in WTA. It seems a reasonable possibility. But I wish you'd make it clear that it is speculation, not fact. Telling people that this is what they're missing may encourage some to experiment on themselves. Playing with MAOIs is not something we should encourage. It is possible that something else in smoke is the X factor. Given the responses to date to DVap's WTA we have reason to believe that the X-Factor for most people is an alkaloid. I think that anything beyond that is speculation.
Thanks Kurt. I don't even pretend to have a tiny bit of knowledge about chemistry but have learned one or two things along the way thru the school of hard knocks. I thought if nothing else, perhaps I can contribute thru observations that I have experienced.
It is fact. That's simply what MAOIs do in the brain, inhibit the MAO enzymes that reduce dopamine and serotonin levels. It is the combination of nicotine and MAOIs that make smoking rewarding - fact.
I also hope non-experts don't experiment, but facts are facts.
MAOIs are not the only 'missing' - people may even 'miss' the taste of tar. But MAOIs is the key 'beneficial' missing factor. There is a great deal of research to show this, which I have linked to over the years.
I was speculating in the beginning circa 2009 but gradually realised that the research had already been done years before.
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I've read your posts and the links you've provided in the main threads here on the subject. Your posts and links add up to an interesting and plausible hypothesis which I hope will be studied further. And I know that you think that the hypothesis is well enough founded to be treated as a fact. In the absence of more direct proof than the supporting evidence you've provided I do not consider it proven. I wrote my prior post in this thread in the hope that you can be convinced to adopt a more rigorous scientific attitude in distinguishing between a good hypothesis and a fact.
In trying to find common ground, I could agree that there might well be other actives (most likely alkaloids) but the role of MAOIs in smoking addiction is a fact. That is why I favor WTA over a nicotine plus MAOI combination; we dont know enough to say which MAOIs do what exactly (that they are MAO inhibitors is just part of their character). And we dont want to make the mistake of over restriction again rgarding what is important in an effective smoking alternative.
WTA to me is the logical go to: try to create a juice with the same balance of naturally occurring alkaloids. Is it a magic bullet? Well, for the few that have used it it does seem quite effective. Placebo effect? I don't think so, but then smoking is a very complicated behavior pattern, with almost as many reasons to smoke as smokers themselves. I don't think it is 100% chemical, and those that have used WTA are a small and rather committed group, but it does to me seem like the obvious thing to try out.
Day 4 for me, and it continues to be as effective as snus. And yes, at 12 mg I still get the forehead thing. In fact, I am probably going to have to cut it down to 6 or 8 mg, as I'm too compulsive of a vaper, and even 12 mg is a bit strong after a while. I prefer to work happily with a carto on my PT and puff away, and one can transcend from calm to a bit woozy rather easily with this. I know DVap told me it was not an all-day vape, but I'm playing with it to see if it can be that for me.
If an all-day vape is like pitchers of beer with friends, WTA is like a snifter of fine cognac with quiet jazz. Very different.
Day 4 for me, and it continues to be as effective as snus. And yes, at 12 mg I still get the forehead thing. In fact, I am probably going to have to cut it down to 6 or 8 mg, as I'm too compulsive of a vaper, and even 12 mg is a bit strong after a while. I prefer to work happily with a carto on my PT and puff away, and one can transcend from calm to a bit woozy rather easily with this. I know DVap told me it was not an all-day vape, but I'm playing with it to see if it can be that for me.
If an all-day vape is like pitchers of beer with friends, WTA is like a snifter of fine cognac with quiet jazz. Very different.
I am curious Kurt if you have a guess of about how much WTA you are vaping a day?
Today I would say I have had about 1.5 mL of 12 mg/mL WTA, so about 18 mg WTA total. Plus a OP snus and a little 12 mg nic-only juice. I filled a carto earlier with 1/2 12 mg WTA and 1/2 12 mg nic-only juice. That seems to be a good combo for me. No analogs though. Considering the stress of my work right now, that's saying a lot.
Which non-U.S. brands are air-cured?
Repeated here for emphasis: The premise that smoking - both its pleasure and its hold - are just an effect of nicotine is (known to be) wrong.
Interesting though, hittman. I hope vapers aren't afraid to vocalize their lack of satiation. Anecdotally, we know from general forum comments that countless vapers have a PV glued to their face almost constantly, which is -- at best -- inconvenient and inefficient, so it isn't a stretch to conclude that "something is missing" for them.
At any rate, the buck stops with us. It is from this circle that the knowledge must spread, but the knowledge must spread in tandem with solutions. Give vapers the option of vaping a WTA eliquid that satiates with 2 - 4 puffs every hour or so, and I believe the vast majority will -- at the very least -- want to add it to their toolkit for times when it is not feasible to indulge a desire for constant hand-to-mouth activity.
Mister, we are not wasting time on epistemological debates here. If you want to play games like that, then go research "addiction" vs. "habituation," at which point you will discover that none of us are -- or ever were -- "addicted" to nicotine. And the practical usefulness of your more accurate understanding will be...zero.
So let's partially skip the semantics and echo kinabaloo in this way: the evidence supporting the MAOI link is so strong that it is almost certainly a fact. (If you disagree with that statement, then prove the causal link between smoking and cancer and get back to us. But remember, high correlations with 95% confidence intervals can only produce "good hypotheses." Prove causation.)
We all appreciate the reminder about the scientific method, but the studies have been done. I became aware of the MAOI link back in the late 1990's, and the science dated back years before that.
Sorry, but after over a decade, I cannot quietly tolerate anyone -- intentionally or otherwise -- employing the (unfortunately effective) tactic of making people skeptical of scientifically-reached conclusions simply by proliferating competing conclusions or generically questioning scientific rigor. We are beyond that point, period.
So, while are virtually certain that there are other smoke constituents that contribute to the positive acute physiological effects of smoking analogs, the evidence overwhelmingly supports a conclusion that the MAOIs in tobacco alkaloids that can be isolated are the most important factor.
Finally, none of us want people experimenting with "traditional" MAOIs, but -- since it hasn't been pointed our here lately -- the following bears repeating: the MAOIs in tobacco are fundamentally different from what the average person envisions when they hear the term "MAOI." The MAOIs we discuss here are reversible and do not display the "cheese/tyramine effect" types of risks associated with "traditional" irreversible MAOIs. Approximately one billion people being alive today after smoking or using snus -- less a handful of vegans -- "suggest" this is a conclusion that is scientifically valid.
This is so important that it bears repeating with emphasis: Ultimately only force of numbers will win the day for safer alternatives, so it is important we help create as many converts as possible as quickly as possible. And WTA would help that significantly.
Hmmm. Maybe that wasn't good enough. Maybe the third time would be the charm:
Ultimately only force of numbers will win the day for safer alternatives, so it is important we help create as many converts as possible as quickly as possible. And WTA would help that significantly.
But it is not far off. I have always thought that vaping has tremendous potential, and thnk it already works as a safer substitute for about half those who try it. Just want to make it better. Hence looking at the acrolein issue, deposit issue and ways to improve the hardware so it is less problematic (that puts off many i think but there have been some improvements).
Vaping is the right format and the technology is basically sound (once one realises why atomisers can't last too long). The only big issue is the e-liquid (not vaping per se) - that followed the mistaken assumption that nicotine was all.
Vaping falls short as a holy grail solution because nicotine has been given far too much credit/blame depending on your perspective.
The medical community is so engrossed with nicotine and their assumptions are so ingrained, that I wonder if they'll ever be able to pull their collective heads out far enough for a fresh view of the landscape. It's a reckless lack of granularity they brings to the table, and even as everyone dutifully hang on their words, the medical community is at risk of falling into irrelevance as they hunker down amid their increasingly outdated paradigm.
I believe in quitting if that's your thing... or snus if it's yours... or WTA liquid if it ever escapes into the wild... or what works for you to get off and stay off of smoking tobacco, DVap doesn't believe in smoking.
We can debate the particulars, but there's something about snus and it's cousin, WTA, and that something breaks the power that cigarettes hold over many of us.
And now, we find Kurt's been forgetting to smoke...
The medical community is so engrossed with nicotine and their assumptions are so ingrained, that I wonder if they'll ever be able to pull their collective heads out far enough for a fresh view of the landscape. It's a reckless lack of granularity they brings to the table, and even as everyone dutifully hang on their words, the medical community is at risk of falling into irrelevance as they hunker down amid their increasingly outdated paradigm.
I believe in quitting if that's your thing... or snus if it's yours... or WTA liquid if it ever escapes into the wild... or what works for you to get off and stay off of smoking tobacco, DVap doesn't believe in smoking.
We can debate the particulars, but there's something about snus and it's cousin, WTA, and that something breaks the power that cigarettes hold over many of us.
And now, we find Kurt's been forgetting to smoke...
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I had to cut my 30mg WTA down to 15mg.. the stuff was giving me cold-sweats it was so potent. I miss the outrageous 30mg throat hit, but I can't handle the stuff without my head ending up floating a foot higher than it's supposed to be. 15mg is still pretty good, especially with no flavor other than that provided by VG/PG/Alkaloids. Still quite gourmet.
Here's an offer...
The first U.S. person (who I'm at least familiar with here) to PM me with an offer of 2 tins of 24 portions each of the strong 16 mg Swedish snus and sends me those tins promptly will get half of the resulting 30 mg WTA snus liquid in exchange for the favour... could come out to as much as 13mL.
Ready, go.
The first U.S. person (who I'm at least familiar with here) to PM me with an offer of 2 tins of 24 portions each of the strong 16 mg Swedish snus and sends me those tins promptly will get half of the resulting 30 mg WTA snus liquid in exchange for the favour... could come out to as much as 13mL.
Ready, go.
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