So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[Stubby]

We can debate the particulars, but there's something about snus and it's cousin, WTA, and that something breaks the power that cigarettes hold over many of us.

And now, we find Kurt's been forgetting to smoke...

Someone said it somewhere

It's one thing to quit smoking, it's another thing to forget to smoke

Here's an offer...

The first U.S. person (who I'm at least familiar with here) to PM me with an offer of 2 tins of 24 portions each of the strong 16 mg Swedish snus and sends me those tins promptly will get half of the resulting 30 mg WTA snus liquid in exchange for the favour... could come out to as much as 13mL.

Ready, go.

Don't do the strong stuff. And I don't even vape anymore (I just kept forgetting to when I had the snus, and then it got all dusty) but I would guess you will have some offers come morning. How 'bout doing the extraction with loose. 45 grams per can of succulent WTA infused baccy instead of 24.

Question: If I recall you did an extraction of Stonewalls but can't quite recall how it went. Is that in your notes somewhere?

 

[Matthis1]

I don't know if this will help anyone or not. My daughter is 4 months pregnant. She took her e-cig to her doctor and got his full approval for using it during pregnancy. I would take this to mean that she's getting less nic than she was when she was smoking. She and I both smoke 23mg. Hope this info helps.

 

[hittman]

I had to cut my 30mg WTA down to 15mg.. the stuff was giving me cold-sweats it was so potent. I miss the outrageous 30mg throat hit, but I can't handle the stuff without my head ending up floating a foot higher than it's supposed to be. 15mg is still pretty good, especially with no flavor other than that provided by VG/PG/Alkaloids. Still quite gourmet.

Dvap, I wonder sometimes if for some reason that I don't absorb the nic/WTA's as well as some others do. I am fine with the 30mg WTA and used it as my main vape for over a week along with reduced snus and snuff usage. I would be tempted to try some 48mg like Tbob did. I don't know if the absorption thing is a good theory or not but along with about 1ml of 30-36 mg liquid per day, I have been using around 8-9 snus portions of which about half are stark or extra stark, and a few pinches of snuff mixed in between the day. With all of that, I keep slipping back to one or two smokes a day. I am beginning to think that the problem I have might be psychological rather than a physical addiction.

 

[Kurt]

Someone said it somewhere

It's one thing to quit smoking, it's another thing to forget to smoke

That's brilliant! Who said that??

 

[hittman]

Uh, maybe you?

 

[Stubby]

That's brilliant! Who said that??

Ha now.... I did say I had read it somewhere...... just couldn't quite place where at that late hour
And of course you know the famous Mark Twain saying

Good writers borrow..... Great writers steal....

 

[Kurt]

Dvap, I wonder sometimes if for some reason that I don't absorb the nic/WTA's as well as some others do. I am fine with the 30mg WTA and used it as my main vape for over a week along with reduced snus and snuff usage. I would be tempted to try some 48mg like Tbob did. I don't know if the absorption thing is a good theory or not but along with about 1ml of 30-36 mg liquid per day, I have been using around 8-9 snus portions of which about half are stark or extra stark, and a few pinches of snuff mixed in between the day. With all of that, I keep slipping back to one or two smokes a day. I am beginning to think that the problem I have might be psychological rather than a physical addiction.

Maybe. But how much did you smoke before? I honestly think that all of us are very different in terms of absorbing and what our brains actually want. The chemical soup that analog smoke contains may be behaving in many, many different ways depending on the person, and it just happens that this smoke has a little bit for everyone.

I personally would be sick with the intake you describe, and not very productive, but then I smoked about 1.25 to 1.5 packs a day of Winston Lights, so less than some here. It could also be that you DO absorb everything, but your nicotine receptors have dramatically upregulated (increased in number) so the addiction/tolerance is much higher. Or as you say, it could also be that you don't absorb as much as others, and thus need more. Really hard to say, and I do not want to make any claims to trends based on the results of only several people...just not statistical yet in the least.

Seems the constipation is coming back, and that was one marker that I thought the MAOIs was taking care of with smoking. Either that or I am right, but not taking in enough. I simply cannot handle a lot of this. I have a carto now on 3.7V which is 1/2 12 mg WTA and 1/2 normal 12 mg nic juice. And it is still making me as maxed out as 36 mg nic-juice would. Had a real smoke this AM, just to try, and it seemed SO strong!! Even sterk snus does not do this. It works, but I must be a total lightweight. Very heady, more like the content of MAOIs is much more than in smoke. Its reminding me of an MAOI I was on 20 years ago, in many ways.

DVap, any chance of taking up the offer you got for an analysis? I think this theoretical speculation has been taken as far as it can go, and we are starting to assume things from that which we don't have verifiable data on. And with the way I feel, I wouldn't be surprised if the composition is not what we think it is. I just didn't expect this strong of a sensation.

 

[kinabaloo]

Seems the constipation is coming back, and that was one marker that I thought the MAOIs was taking care of with smoking. Either that or I am right, but not taking in enough. I simply cannot handle a lot of this. I have a carto now on 3.7V which is 1/2 12 mg WTA and 1/2 normal 12 mg nic juice. And it is still making me as maxed out as 36 mg nic-juice would. Had a real smoke this AM, just to try, and it seemed SO strong!! Even sterk snus does not do this. It works, but I must be a total lightweight. Very heady, more like the content of MAOIs is much more than in smoke. Its reminding me of an MAOI I was on 20 years ago, in many ways.

In a small way confirms what i suspected - that WTA is richer in MAOIs than analog smoke. This is not a problem as it could be blended with nic-only liquid as required. In one way this is a good thing as the satiation should be higher (analogs are not that satiating for many).

Re constipation: as relief here is a nic effect rather than dopamine or other neurotransmitter mediated (afaik), this is not a surprising result; but worth noting of course.

 

[Mister]

Mister, we are not wasting time on epistemological debates here. If you want to play games like that, then go research "addiction" vs. "habituation," at which point you will discover that none of us are -- or ever were -- "addicted" to nicotine. And the practical usefulness of your more accurate understanding will be...zero.

So let's partially skip the semantics and echo kinabaloo in this way: the evidence supporting the MAOI link is so strong that it is almost certainly a fact. (If you disagree with that statement, then prove the causal link between smoking and cancer and get back to us. But remember, high correlations with 95% confidence intervals can only produce "good hypotheses." Prove causation.)

We all appreciate the reminder about the scientific method, but the studies have been done. I became aware of the MAOI link back in the late 1990's, and the science dated back years before that.

Sorry, but after over a decade, I cannot quietly tolerate anyone -- intentionally or otherwise -- employing the (unfortunately effective) tactic of making people skeptical of scientifically-reached conclusions simply by proliferating competing conclusions or generically questioning scientific rigor. We are beyond that point, period.

I am not playing games.

I am aware of the strong evidence that MAOI activity plays a significant role in establishing smoking addiction and I accept it as almost certainly a fact. Nicotine by itself is certainly far less addictive than it is as delivered by smoking and MAOIs almost certainly play a significant role in the increased addictiveness.

But I have not seen research providing strong evidence that MAOI activity plays a significant role in smoking dependence, which is what this thread is about, i.e. "are we getting it or not." I've seem work from a few researchers, particulary Dr. Joanna Fowler, over the past decade which is suggestive in this regard. But nothing like 95% certainty. If you know of research which provides strong evidence of the role played by tobacco MAOIs in smoking dependence please post some links. I would like to read about it.

I think that the survey at https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=HrpzL8PN5cP366RWhWvCTjggiZM_2b8yQJHfwE9UXRNhE_3d provides some interesting insights. Over 2,000 e-cig users responded. 75% no longer used any other tobacco product. Nicotine alone worked for 72%. (3% use zero nic fluid so they're excluded.) The respondents were I think strongly addicted to smoking: Over 80% had smoked for 11 years or more, 63% had previously tried quitting with gum, 60% with the patch, 65% by weaning off, 68% cold turkey.

What all that suggests to me is that for a majority of cigarette addicts tobacco based MAOI activity (and also activity resulting from any ingredient in cigaratte smoke other than nicotine) does not play a strong role in their dependence.

None of this is to say that tobacco MAOIs are not the ingredient in tobacco which is missing for some of us. I just haven't seen evidence either way. Again, if you have, please post some references.

 

[kardenm]

Started at the beginning of this thread then jumped to end. I guess I missed explaination of WTA.
Can someone just tell me what is WTA and/or direct me to an explanation?

 

[kinabaloo]

I think that the survey at https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=HrpzL8PN5cP366RWhWvCTjggiZM_2b8yQJHfwE9UXRNhE_3d provides some interesting insights. Over 2,000 e-cig users responded. 75% no longer used any other tobacco product. Nicotine alone worked for 72%. (3% use zero nic fluid so they're excluded.) The respondents were I think strongly addicted to smoking: Over 80% had smoked for 11 years or more, 63% had previously tried quitting with gum, 60% with the patch, 65% by weaning off, 68% cold turkey.

What all that suggests to me is that for a majority of cigarette addicts tobacco based MAOI activity (and also activity resulting from any ingredient in cigaratte smoke other than nicotine) does not play a strong role in their dependence.

On the survey : "... e-cig users responded" - so it is a sample skewed in favor of successfully switched to just nic and maintained it. So it doesn't actually support your conclusions very well.

I guestimate the true figure for successfully switched to nic-only vaping to be more like 50% (if that; but still impressive). And previously I mused that this can be accounted for by :
* the fact that the e-cig is a very good placebo because it has much of the behavioural aspects of smoking
* that the nic is more important for some (while others need the MAOIs / 'missing' more).

In passing, it is worth making clear that nicotine and MAOIs are not just two distinct factors - they have an important synergy in effect such that even those for whom nicotine-only works, a WTA or nic-WTA blend might work better (in reducing chain vaping for example).

~~~

later : To put it another way, high dose nicotine can partially (though not very well) substitute for the effects that are more readily achieved when the amplififying MAOIs are present.

 

[Kurt]

Kin, one of the side effect of pharma MAOI's is in fact constipation, that is anticholinergic effect on smooth muscles. They relax them to the point of everything stopping. If these MAOIs are acting similarly, this would explain it, and also supports that its something else entirely in cig smoke that relieves this, as in seconds sometimes. My guess is CO, but I do not know.

This also would seem to negate my original thoughts that WTA is acting like a cig, and allowing movement. It was within 24 hours, so perhaps the real effect of the MAOIs had simply not taken hold yet. This all may be somewhat offensive to people, but to me it is all part of the whole picture biochemically.

 

[Kurt]

Started at the beginning of this thread then jumped to end. I guess I missed explaination of WTA.
Can someone just tell me what is WTA and/or direct me to an explanation?

Whole Tobacco Alkaloids. So all the psychoactive compounds in tobacco, not just nicotine. At least we think it is all the psychoactive compounds, assuming that they are all of a similar chemical nature (organic amines), which they generally are. The process was carried out by one of our resident chemists, DVap, and samples have been sent out to a few people here...its a time consuming, messy and expensive process, and at this point it is no where nearly available to the general public.

 

[hittman]

Maybe. But how much did you smoke before? I honestly think that all of us are very different in terms of absorbing and what our brains actually want. The chemical soup that analog smoke contains may be behaving in many, many different ways depending on the person, and it just happens that this smoke has a little bit for everyone.

I personally would be sick with the intake you describe, and not very productive, but then I smoked about 1.25 to 1.5 packs a day of Winston Lights, so less than some here. It could also be that you DO absorb everything, but your nicotine receptors have dramatically upregulated (increased in number) so the addiction/tolerance is much higher. Or as you say, it could also be that you don't absorb as much as others, and thus need more. Really hard to say, and I do not want to make any claims to trends based on the results of only several people...just not statistical yet in the least.

Seems the constipation is coming back, and that was one marker that I thought the MAOIs was taking care of with smoking. Either that or I am right, but not taking in enough. I simply cannot handle a lot of this. I have a carto now on 3.7V which is 1/2 12 mg WTA and 1/2 normal 12 mg nic juice. And it is still making me as maxed out as 36 mg nic-juice would. Had a real smoke this AM, just to try, and it seemed SO strong!! Even sterk snus does not do this. It works, but I must be a total lightweight. Very heady, more like the content of MAOIs is much more than in smoke. Its reminding me of an MAOI I was on 20 years ago, in many ways.

DVap, any chance of taking up the offer you got for an analysis? I think this theoretical speculation has been taken as far as it can go, and we are starting to assume things from that which we don't have verifiable data on. And with the way I feel, I wouldn't be surprised if the composition is not what we think it is. I just didn't expect this strong of a sensation.

To answer your question Kurt, I smoked about a pack a day for about twenty years and towards the end smoked 1.5 packs the last three years. I started with marlboro lights to marlboro reds to newport kings and 100's and ended up with camel menthols. Today has been one of those days where I can't seem to scratch the itch. I have had one 16mg portion, one 13mg portion, one 12mg portion, one 8mg portion, and four pinches of snuff and a little vaping mixed in at 32mg. I don't understand why I'm not comatose with this much and am already thinking about the next portion which I may have in place by the time I finish this post. I'm not trying to complain or be a whiner, I am just trying to understand why some days almost nothing can quench my appetite for nic\tobacco\maoi's.

 

[Kurt]

Mister, I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that there is no evidence that MAOIs are a factor for anyone with smoking, and thus this experiment is misguided? Are you saying we are wasting our time? Please explain, as nic alone is definitely not the magic bullet for me. Perhaps you have some suggestions.

To me the title "Are we getting it?" does not mean nicotine per se, it means is nicotine the "it" all of us are looking for biochemically? Or is there something more some of us might actually be craving? That is, if the craving is actually biochemical, which remains to be seen. I know for me snus takes care of much of what vaping nic only does not, so what is that? Our thought, at least at this point, is that the snus is providing the other alkaloids as well, which some might need. It does seem to work well.

 

[kinabaloo]

Kin, one of the side effect of pharma MAOI's is in fact constipation, that is anticholinergic effect on smooth muscles. They relax them to the point of everything stopping. If these MAOIs are acting similarly, this would explain it, and also supports that its something else entirely in cig smoke that relieves this, as in seconds sometimes. My guess is CO, but I do not know.

This also would seem to negate my original thoughts that WTA is acting like a cig, and allowing movement. It was within 24 hours, so perhaps the real effect of the MAOIs had simply not taken hold yet. This all may be somewhat offensive to people, but to me it is all part of the whole picture biochemically.

I may be wrong about the nicotine - bowel movement link - thought nic did have an anticholinergic effect on smooth muscles. Maybe it is one of those prevalent nicotine legends/myths.

Then again, perhaps both help.

 

[kinabaloo]

at this point it is no where nearly available to the general public.

As far as we know. Hopefully there is work being done on it somewhere, which obviously would be kept quiet until ready for launch to steal a march on competitors.

I have absolutely no info to this effect; just a hope.

 

[Mister]

Mister, I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that there is no evidence that MAOIs are a factor for anyone with smoking, and thus this experiment is misguided? Are you saying we are wasting our time? Please explain, as nic alone is definitely not the magic bullet for me. Perhaps you have some suggestions.

No, I'm not saying that there's no evidence that MAOIs are a factor with smoking. To the contrary, there is good reason to believe that MAOIs play a significant role in people becoming addicted to smoking. It is certain that reduced MAO levels in the brain result from smoking, that these reduced levels play a role in causing addiction, and that these reduced levels are not caused by nicotine. It is logical and probable that the reduced MAO levels are caused by the MAOI alkaloids in tobacco but this is not certain as far as I know.

What I am saying is that this information isn't necessarily relevant to smoking dependency. What we need to satisfy an established addiction is not necessarily the same combination of things as what created the addiction. For example suppose that the physical sensation of smoke in your throat is a strong component of your personal smoking addiction. There is evidence to strongly suggest that reduced MAO levels in your brain, resulting from MAOIs, which were introduced into your body by smoking, caused you to become dependent on this sensation. Do you expect that presenting the sensation at this point, without presenting those MAOIs at the same time will be gratifying? It seems fairly clear to me that the sensation in itself is now gratifying. The dependence is probably on the activity, not on all of the things which were present in your bloodstream at the same time as the activity when the dependence was created.

I'm saying that just because it is known that MAOI activity plays a role in establishing a smoking addiction, that does not mean that MAOI activity is necessary to satisfy the resulting dependency (i.e. to avoid withdrawal symptoms.)

So I don't take evidence which shows that MAOI activity plays a role in establishing smoking addiction as evidence that it is important in WTA. It is suggestive but without more direct evidence that's about all it is.

To me the title "Are we getting it?" does not mean nicotine per se, it means is nicotine the "it" all of us are looking for biochemically? Or is there something more some of us might actually be craving? That is, if the craving is actually biochemical, which remains to be seen. I know for me snus takes care of much of what vaping nic only does not, so what is that? Our thought, at least at this point, is that the snus is providing the other alkaloids as well, which some might need. It does seem to work well.

I completely agree. I could not ditch my last few cigarettes per day after five months of vaping until, a bit over a year ago, I started using a snus supplement. I haven't had a cigarette since.

It seems clear to me that nicotine is not the only "it" for many of us. Not even in combination with all the sensations and cues of smoking (i.e. vaping.) It seems very likely that one or more of the other alkaloids in tobacco, in combination with nicotine, will provide the "it" for almost all of us. I make that statement based on the evidence so far from DVap's WTA. But in the absence of additional information I am unwilling to assume that the MAOI alkaloids in WTA are the ones which are doing the trick. I think that kin and tescela are skipping some science which remains to be done before concluding what it is in WTA which makes it work better in terms of satisfying an addicted tobacco user.

 

[kinabaloo]

Mister - good to debate and reconsider standpoints. Yet I remain certain than the MAOIs are the key other, though maybe not the whole picture. Brain biochemistry is not fully understood, let alone how all the alkaloids act and interact, but while this is the case, it remains in my mind clear-cut that nicotine in concert with MAOIs are the key to the hold of smoking and of an effective substitute.

You say I am missing some science; I say the science is in. We'll just have to leave it there for now. I will follow the science wherever that leads; I don't have shares in MAOIs or something

On the point about substitues and Pavlovian-like associations : in a case like we face with smoking, that approach would likely only get so far; to be effective I think the replacement does need to replicate the actual chemistry - and luckily we can do that with WTA. It has the key factors (but maybe not all) and these are not the (particularly) dangerous things. That said, vaping also addresses the behavioural aspects and that is why it is the ideal format to work for most people.

~~~

Also in favor of the MAOI hypothesis (to borrow your term), is the fact that there is no other alkaloid-based explanation on the table, afaik.

At least we agree, I think, that nicotine-MAOI synergy is A key factor, even if we can't agree that it is THE key factor.

 

[Kurt]

To answer your question Kurt, I smoked about a pack a day for about twenty years and towards the end smoked 1.5 packs the last three years. I started with marlboro lights to marlboro reds to newport kings and 100's and ended up with camel menthols. Today has been one of those days where I can't seem to scratch the itch. I have had one 16mg portion, one 13mg portion, one 12mg portion, one 8mg portion, and four pinches of snuff and a little vaping mixed in at 32mg. I don't understand why I'm not comatose with this much and am already thinking about the next portion which I may have in place by the time I finish this post. I'm not trying to complain or be a whiner, I am just trying to understand why some days almost nothing can quench my appetite for nic\tobacco\maoi's.

hitt, gotcha. so the number didn't really increase, but the strength and depth of penetration did increase...there is a world of difference between marl lights and newport 100s. I know what they put in the filters of those to increase the smoke penetration, so it makes sense you would require that which you do. Why nothing is working I don't know, perhaps something negative or stressful on your mind...I know I get that way too.