So cert organic eliquid is bad. Can someone please explain why?

[organikness]

Greetings people

This train of though seemed to pop up over night recently (at least in my country and circle of friends etc), and I would really like to understand why. I have been eating organic food for half my life now, and so the switch to organics regarding vaping was a no brainer (considering I could find very little to no research on organic vaping).

I have read much of the literature of Dr Farsalinos, and a few other papers that seem to be of notable worth, and can't find anything on the horrendous dangers of organics that people are claiming. Am I missing something? From the consensus so far, it seems once your sources for nic, pg and vg are of a certain quality, the flavours are the component that seem to be the indecisive / variable factor.

I am all for being informed. I just want to know

Peace

P.S For a little clarity, here are my responses to some statements made by Jack, in one of my threads in the DIY forum

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I stay way clear of Organics. They are #1 bad for you

How are they bad for you? Would you care to elaborate? Do you have references or proof, or can you at least add weight to this claim?

they are coil cloggers.

I have smoked Virgin Vapor exclusively since I began vaping, and they clog your coils no more or less than any other juice does

Organics don't break down can't be absorbed so they leave stuff in your lungs.

Again, hyperbole and rhetoric. What do you mean by 'organics don't break down can't be absorbed'? Can you please expand on your train of thought? Can you share some proof, evidence or lend weight to this claim?

If you go organic avoid ones with Xanthan gum

Why would a flavour manufacturer put Xanthan gum in their flavours?

Also alcohol

Many flavours, not just organic ones, contain ethyl alcohol. In fact, Virgin Vapor and some Crave flavours, are cold pressed, and contain zero alcohol.


I am a nutritionalist and a herbalist, and my curiosity has been nibbled at lately due to the OVERWHELMING number of regular people who are walking around chanting 'organic's are bad' and 'synthetics / regular juice is better' regarding vaping, without giving any real evidence as too why. Is it solely due to extraction of flavours from raw materials being unregulated and not performed in a lab to FDA regulations? Is there any actual lab research that has been done, or ideas put forward by reputable scientists?

 

[Ken_A]

Greetings people



P.S For a little clarity, here are my responses to some statements made by Jack, in one of my threads in the DIY forum
...
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...
Again, hyperbole and rhetoric. What do you mean by 'organics don't break down can't be absorbed'? Can you please expand on your train of thought? Can you share some proof, evidence or lend weight ...

I cut out most of it to highlight such a claim.
Someone actually SAID that organic things do not break down, or are not readily absorbed by the body?
Has anyone eaten cardboard, or paper when young? Plastic too? Which one is not absorbed by the body?
The organic compounds, or the manufactured ones?

Anyone(including your friend jack) who thinks that natural is worse than artificial may need to do a bit of research.

Non processed cotton will break down in about 3 months. A nice, processed cigarette filter takes anywhere from 10 months to 10 YEARS!

Natural flavors are more readily absorbed through the lungs than long-chain artificial ones.

Personally, I don't worry about it. I don't feel I'm getting enough of either through vaping for them to make a difference in the long run.

 

[mujuru]

i'm no expert... but recall researching this a little bit several months ago. The one thing that kind of made sense to me was that someone said that the molecule size of the organic flavorings tend to not be uniformed and that they tend to be larger and therefore not as easily absorbed through the lungs, etc... Of course, I'm not sure of the accuracy of this... just something i read and said.... hmmm... that sort of makes sense.

 

[organikness]

Thanks for the replies so far

 

[Gargoyle]

organikness whomever made such claims really needs to back up their claims. I can see no validity in any of those claims you have posted.

 

[Baditude]

i'm no expert... but recall researching this a little bit several months ago. The one thing that kind of made sense to me was that someone said that the molecule size of the organic flavorings tend to not be uniformed and that they tend to be larger and therefore not as easily absorbed through the lungs, etc... Of course, I'm not sure of the accuracy of this... just something i read and said.... hmmm... that sort of makes sense.

It is debatable whether any of the ingredients makes it way to the alveoli at all. It's been debated that most of the nicotine in vapor is absorbed mostly in the mouth, throat, and nasal pasageways, not in the lungs. The molecules in vapor are larger than those in smoke.

Along the same lines concerning flavoring agents: Many vendors have voluntarily stopped using diacetyl as a flavoring agent. This is commonly used in butterscotch flavors. Evidence has shown inhaling diacetyl can cause a severe form of lung disease called bronchiolitis obliterans (or "popcorn lung disease").

-- Food Flavorings and Lung Disease (Diacetyl)

 

[CKCalmer]

Yes, with any claim that is not an axiom, the onus is on the claimant. Always.

And also consider the credibility of the person making the claims, if it's someone with whom you're familiar. This doesn't really matter in the face of my first point, above. The onus is on the claimant, regardless of credibility. It's just that if I'm familiar with a person's credibility or lack thereof, it makes it easier for me to predict the veracity of their claims.

For some people I've known, if they told me the sky is blue, I'd have to look up to be sure.

 

[celticluvr]

Might wanna be nice... Jack is a Mod...

Just some friendly advice for the future. Also I would like to hear facts on this as well, just so I have this knowledge saved for a rainy day.

 

[classwife]

Moved to General E-Liquid Discussion from General E-Smoking Discussion

 

[Porksmuggler]

Diacetyl is a naturally occurring organic compound. Is your organic eliquid Diacetyl free?

Artificial flavorings are typically less complex in their composition also, so it's a bit easier to isolate harmful chemicals (also found in natural flavors) on a MSDS. https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx

The idea that organic or natural flavors are inherently safer for inhalation is irresponsible. The compounds need to be determined by real chemists.

 

[Jimi D.]

We're in the early stages of vaping. We'll know more probably in 5 to 10 years. As for now lets be the guinea pigs

I just vape what tastes good. I'm comfortable with my favorite flavoring manufacturer as they state the flavors are safe. That is all I have to go by. I'm just going to enjoy that I'm not smoking

 

[Mazinny]

just curious what "organic" means, as it relates to e-liquid. is it only the flavorings we are talking about, or the pg,vg, and nicotine base as well ? thanks.

 

[CastleRat]

I don't get it. Don't regular flavors also contain the same organic compounds found in organic flavors?

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Organic ≠ Safe, Safer, or Safest

I'm not any more qualified to than the next guy to reason why the above statement is true other than there are plenty of organic things that will kill you faster than an ambulance can get a paramedic to your organic imbibing self.

It really boils down to trusting the company creating the organic e-liquids you use, nothing more.

As long as you don't say they are Safe, Safer, or Safest we're cool, but as soon as you make those claims you fall into the blowing smoke crowd.

Maurice

 

[Porksmuggler]

I don't get it. Don't regular flavors also contain the same organic compounds found in organic flavors?

There's a movement, primarily that is apparent in the USA, where claims are that natural/organic anything is better/safer than artificial. Mostly individuals without sufficient understanding of chemistry, or out to make a buck off the label. I'm' not saying there aren't harmful artificial products, but the notion that organic products are automatically safer is daft.

 

[organikness]

Hey guys

By no means was my post a stab at Jack, whatsoever. I would never put anyone down for their opinion, ever. I was just after a little clarification on the points he made, that's all.

Organic in the way that I understand it (not how it relates to an organic compound in chemistry), is the farming practices and guidelines which gives a plant source (e.g for flavours) organic certification... which does ofc relate to chemistry.

I have never stated organic is safer or better, I was only wanting clarification and expansion on the point in my original post. People have such deep fears and resistance to the entire 'organic vs non-organic' debate, that threads get derailed and twisted somewhat for no reason. Thanks mass marketing and consumerism (on both sides)

 

[Porksmuggler]

Organic in the way that I understand it (not how it relates to chemistry), is the farming practices and guidelines which gives a plant source organic certification.

I have never stated organic is safer or better, I was only wanting clarification and expansion on the point in my original post. People have such deep fears and resistance to the entire 'organic vs non-organic' debate, that threads get derailed and twisted somewhat for no reason. Thanks mass marketing and consumerism (on both sides)

You're 16 posts into the forum, your handle is organikness, and you've identified yourself as a nutritionalist/herbalist. How exactly are you not implying organic is safer, regardless of a direct statement?

The definition of organic that is important is the one that relates to chemistry for a discussion of eliquid. The ingredient of greatest safety concern currently is flavoring, and that's all about chemistry.

 

[amolson]

Myself, I prefer the taste of real stuff, not pure chemicals created in a lab. I mean yes, modern cooking oil is far safer and 'better for you' than the old fashioned lard, but I prefer the taste of the lard. I mean for years everyone was going on about how much 'healthier' trans fats were for you than butter or lard. Whatever. I'm so over the whole 'healthy eating' stuff.

Go right ahead and eat plastic and suck down the vitamin tablets. I'll be over here with my RAW salad, deep fried baked potato, locally raised grass fed rib-eye steak and microbrewed Icky. Afterward I'll be vaping my hops or one of my organic VV juices and having a good time.

 

[organikness]

You're 16 posts into the forum, your handle is organikness, and you've identified yourself as a nutritionalist/herbalist. How exactly are you not implying organic is safer, regardless of a direct statement?

The definition of organic that is important is the one that relates to chemistry for a discussion of eliquid. The ingredient of greatest safety concern currently is flavoring, and that's all about chemistry.

Being a nutritionalist or herbalist does not automatically give you organic status. For the sake of discussion, I have learnt over the years to keep my opinions to myself, especially within the organic vs non-organic paradigm. I only know what is right for me, no one else. People have the free choice to make up there own minds. Sometimes I might impart tidbits of information if relevant, but mostly I am happy to sit in the background and live the way I live

Yes flavouring is all about chemistry. The arguments I have been hearing though have been obfuscated and unclear, and directly implicating flavouring that is derived from cert organic plant sources, and then the chemistry of such (which isn't being directly related to organic compounds).

 

[faile]

Myself, I prefer the taste of real stuff, not pure chemicals created in a lab. I mean yes, modern cooking oil is far safer and 'better for you' than the old fashioned lard, but I prefer the taste of the lard. I mean for years everyone was going on about how much 'healthier' trans fats were for you than butter or lard. Whatever. I'm so over the whole 'healthy eating' stuff.

Go right ahead and eat plastic and suck down the vitamin tablets. I'll be over here with my RAW salad, deep fried baked potato, locally raised grass fed rib-eye steak and microbrewed Icky. Afterward I'll be vaping my hops or one of my organic VV juices and having a good time.

OT:

Deep-fried baked potato?? That sounds fantastic!!

/OT

OP, I'm glad you've asked this question-- I've been interested in a more in-depth discussion of this whole topic.