but its really going awful!! lol ive made several juices over time, and whether i just make them myself based on what sounds *smells* good, or follow a recipe, it seems i just make awful liquid tar or vicks! 
help
help- Status
Start simple. Do single flavor mixes or one shots (premixed flavor concentrates) and move on as you get the hang of it. When following recipes, make sure to use the same brand and flavor the recipe calls for. A strawberry, for example, is going to be totally different from one brand to the next. Also, using a different type, like ripe strawberry when a recipe calls for sweet strawberry, can change the flavor profile a lot, sometimes good and sometimes bad. We all make bad juice when experimenting, just keep at it until you make something good. Just don't forget to write down your recipes as you go, nothing is worse than making an awesome juice and to not know how to recreate it.
Get a juice calculator. I use EjuiceMeUp but there are several free calculators available. All you have to do is fill in the blanks, hit calculate and you'll get specific amounts of ingredients to add to make your juice. Then you can print out the recipe and save it to file on your computer.
Make small batches, (10 ml), so if you make a bad juice you don't have to waste your supplies. Also get some stick on labels to identify your juices. Try the juice and if it's bad, let it steep for a couple of weeks and try it again and make a final decision. Trial and error is half the fun of the process so don't get frustrated. If you like sweet you can get a sweetener or marshmallow to add to your juice. Just keep trying and you'll find the recipe that works for you.
Make small batches, (10 ml), so if you make a bad juice you don't have to waste your supplies. Also get some stick on labels to identify your juices. Try the juice and if it's bad, let it steep for a couple of weeks and try it again and make a final decision. Trial and error is half the fun of the process so don't get frustrated. If you like sweet you can get a sweetener or marshmallow to add to your juice. Just keep trying and you'll find the recipe that works for you.
but its really going awful!! lol ive made several juices over time, and whether i just make them myself based on what sounds *smells* good, or follow a recipe, it seems i just make awful liquid tar or vicks!
My first suggestion, is to start with low percentages and work up. More does not mean better, and every flavor is different as far as strength. As an example, I have a Guava/Raspberry/vanilla custard mix. Normally, I vape guava/custard, with my mixture usually being %6 guava and %6 vanilla custard. I decided to add raspberry in the mix, so I figured I'd try %5 guava, %6 raspberry and %4 vanilla custard.... that was a big mistake. The raspberry was an overwhelming flavor, and it tasted more like cough syrup than anything else. I tried letting it air and steep for a month, but it didn't help much. I decided to shelf it and try my standard batch. One day, I decided to try mixing half of that raspberry mix and half of my standard mix, and that made the difference. I learned that I should add no more than %3 raspberry to a flavor.. any more would be too much. Same goes for Bananna.
As a general rule, you should have no more than %10 flavoring overall. Sometimes you can go over, but it's best to have experience with the flavor first before you decide. If you have a dripper, that might be a good tester. Make a bottle, and add %1 flavoring to start, shake, then drip and taste. Keep adding until it gets to a comfortable level. There are some flavors, however, that need to be aired and steeped. If after you make a mix, and it smells "perfumy", that's usually a sign that it needs to be aired and/or steeped. I find many of the fruity flavors need some airing out first. Tobacco and some of the sweeter flavors start off weak, but get stronger as they steep.
I hope that helps... you might want to give the DIY forum a look at. Get your brand and flavor of juices handy and ask others about their experiences with that flavor. Maybe they know more.. I DIY my juice, but I don't make a very big variety.
Tons of helpful information in the DIY section.
Things I did to get ready for DIY: taste tested as many juices as I could so I got a sense for what my palate liked and didn't. Read as many recipes as possible to find out what flavor building blocks "Went" well with others.
I started with single flavor mixes, and I made sure to steep for a fair amount of time, but tasting along the way to see the time it took "flavor blocks" to develop. I kept notes. I would then combine single flavor mixes in my tank, to get a "sense" of how they went together. It wasn't the same as steeping all flavors together, but it gave me a general sense. I'd also combine with premade juice which I kept to hand, as I knew my DIY start would be slow but steady. Had some interesting tastes along the way. I kept notes. Then, I started actually mixing things that I created, in increasing complexity, and my skills just kind of "built" on themselves. I'm really glad I did it that way as it did help me "understand" flavors and most of my mixes now are somewhat complex, usually at least 3--4 flavorings, and I am "reluctant" sweetener, but I do occasionally use some in my mixes, at very small quantities. I use sucralose as I understand that sweetener and how it works. Some sweet "candy" flavors can also be layered to give sweetness although many of them use Ethyl maltol which can mute some flavors, so I tend to use those flavors sparingly, although things like marshmallow (one of my favorites) cotton candy or merengue can add sweetness with some flavor "depth" as well. I have yet to follow a single recipe as I know I can make my own with results I enjoy. My "profiling" of flavors also means I can create to other's tastes, too, I usally have the person pick a "primary" flavor, and then send them away, and overflavor and oversweeten (for me). So far, so good.
One shots aren't a bad idea at to build confidence and you can be vaping "your own" flavors as you start experimenting a bit more precisely and possibly more simply. Most of all, steep, taste, don't overflavor especially if steeping is not yet complete. Most of my mixes are at around 5--8% flavoring, and storebought often tastes harsh or over sweetened to me these days. But, sometimes staring slow, and moving forward slowly will yield the "best" results.
I was not the most "rapid" of DIY, but I approached it exactly like cooking, which I taught myself by eating food, reading recipes, and then making my own creations .I also set very, very low expectations of my abilities to start, and that helped too. I wasn't looking for a single flavor to taste fantastic, but I wanted to understand its steeping time and how it interacted with other flavors. Using patience, I just slowly and steadily built my DIY skills. If a mix failed, I'd continue experimenting with it, and have been able to "rescue" most of my flavor mixes (except for YOU orange creamsicle, LOL). It's worth the time and effort to be patient, in my opinion.
Best of luck and I hope you find success. The DIY forum is going to be your friend, here.
Anna
Things I did to get ready for DIY: taste tested as many juices as I could so I got a sense for what my palate liked and didn't. Read as many recipes as possible to find out what flavor building blocks "Went" well with others.
I started with single flavor mixes, and I made sure to steep for a fair amount of time, but tasting along the way to see the time it took "flavor blocks" to develop. I kept notes. I would then combine single flavor mixes in my tank, to get a "sense" of how they went together. It wasn't the same as steeping all flavors together, but it gave me a general sense. I'd also combine with premade juice which I kept to hand, as I knew my DIY start would be slow but steady. Had some interesting tastes along the way. I kept notes. Then, I started actually mixing things that I created, in increasing complexity, and my skills just kind of "built" on themselves. I'm really glad I did it that way as it did help me "understand" flavors and most of my mixes now are somewhat complex, usually at least 3--4 flavorings, and I am "reluctant" sweetener, but I do occasionally use some in my mixes, at very small quantities. I use sucralose as I understand that sweetener and how it works. Some sweet "candy" flavors can also be layered to give sweetness although many of them use Ethyl maltol which can mute some flavors, so I tend to use those flavors sparingly, although things like marshmallow (one of my favorites) cotton candy or merengue can add sweetness with some flavor "depth" as well. I have yet to follow a single recipe as I know I can make my own with results I enjoy. My "profiling" of flavors also means I can create to other's tastes, too, I usally have the person pick a "primary" flavor, and then send them away, and overflavor and oversweeten (for me). So far, so good.
One shots aren't a bad idea at to build confidence and you can be vaping "your own" flavors as you start experimenting a bit more precisely and possibly more simply. Most of all, steep, taste, don't overflavor especially if steeping is not yet complete. Most of my mixes are at around 5--8% flavoring, and storebought often tastes harsh or over sweetened to me these days. But, sometimes staring slow, and moving forward slowly will yield the "best" results.
I was not the most "rapid" of DIY, but I approached it exactly like cooking, which I taught myself by eating food, reading recipes, and then making my own creations .I also set very, very low expectations of my abilities to start, and that helped too. I wasn't looking for a single flavor to taste fantastic, but I wanted to understand its steeping time and how it interacted with other flavors. Using patience, I just slowly and steadily built my DIY skills. If a mix failed, I'd continue experimenting with it, and have been able to "rescue" most of my flavor mixes (except for YOU orange creamsicle, LOL). It's worth the time and effort to be patient, in my opinion.
Best of luck and I hope you find success. The DIY forum is going to be your friend, here.
Anna
Welcome and glad you joined.but its really going awful!! lol ive made several juices over time, and whether i just make them myself based on what sounds *smells* good, or follow a recipe, it seems i just make awful liquid tar or vicks!
Might want to post in: DIY E-Liquid
Would like to see a couple of your recipes.
When I first started my biggest problem was trying for overcomplicated recipes and too much flavoring. A tiny bit can go a long way. Like the earlier suggestions said, start with a simple 1 or 2 flavor base. I usually will do a 10ml trial of each additional flavor. If you add a flavor and it works then make a larger amount. I will start with 2 drops per 10ml and work up until getting to the right amount. Some tobaccos may not get good until it has steeped for a couple weeks to a month. Even fruit needs a few days.
Just a FYI... drops are a fairly inaccurate means of measure, but it can be usefull. If you do the drop method, use flavorings that are PG based so they'll have a similar consistency to water. For water, 20 drops is roughly equal to 1ml. So, 2 drops of pg based flavoring in a 10ml bottle is roughly equal to %1 flavoring. This might help in the long run if you decide to make a larger batch of a flavor you discover you like.
I got the pazzo one shots line from Nicotine River recently. It solved my mixing problems.
The pros it's easier than trying to come up with a good recipe. It's easier to mix. You're not always having to order a few flavors and wait a week to try a new recipe. It's cheaper, You mix them at 4 to 8 percent instead of the usual 14 percent of other flavors. Many other one shots costs twice as much and you use 3 times as much. And 4 out of the 5 mixes are really good.
The Canoli is now my adv. The black currant and tropical fruit is right behind. The strawberry candy is decent. The flavor they call the Queen... Not so much.
The pros it's easier than trying to come up with a good recipe. It's easier to mix. You're not always having to order a few flavors and wait a week to try a new recipe. It's cheaper, You mix them at 4 to 8 percent instead of the usual 14 percent of other flavors. Many other one shots costs twice as much and you use 3 times as much. And 4 out of the 5 mixes are really good.
The Canoli is now my adv. The black currant and tropical fruit is right behind. The strawberry candy is decent. The flavor they call the Queen... Not so much.
I only do that for 10ml test bottles. 2 drops would be about 1%. I usually would get the flavors first and fine tune the amounts after. I am just getting back into experimenting. I have done the same recipe for so long I just bought what I needed and dumped it in a bottle. I didn't even have measuring cups any more. I have had to make numerous trips to flavor shack for supplies over the last month. I forgot how fun mixing is.
Thanks guys. I really should have been more specific when I write that. I have spent countless hours reading and researching and YouTubing and Flavorbooking... I have followed recipes and when I say make my own I pretty much mean simple stuff like strawberry lemonade or lucky charms cereal. Even following recipes it’s like I just can’t get over this nasty taste! Let me be clear, I’ve tried changing my bases (brands, percentages, storage) I’ve tried variations with the flavors (like shisha strawberry vs strawberry ripe vs simply strawberry fresh you get my drift) I’ve mixed by ml, and by weight. I’ve poured over countless sites as to what “staples” to have in my arsenal so I literally have nearly every flavor ever made (lol) so THAT WHEN A RECIPE CALLS FOR SPECIFICITY, I’ll have THAT flavor on hand. I’ve tried the less is more rule, the 1% rule, the 5% rule, the “look at the mixers recommended percentages for that flavor rule, the wth maybe I’m doing too little let’s add more rule. Im REALLY passionate about it but I’m just not GOOD at it. I got into diy mixing about 2 years ago but then put it down for a year or so, but just NEVER made a juice even REMOTELY close to the yummys you get store bought. ((I mean have you ever TRIED Butter Brew by Yami Vapor??))
I’m so close to just wholesaling my lot to someone and giving up, but I would love if I could just figure out if it’s really possible to make good juices at home or is it just make believe propaganda the flavor labs are selling us? That’s what I meant when I said HELP!!
(I’ve even screwed up recipes from Fear and ID10-T)
I’m so close to just wholesaling my lot to someone and giving up, but I would love if I could just figure out if it’s really possible to make good juices at home or is it just make believe propaganda the flavor labs are selling us? That’s what I meant when I said HELP!!
(I’ve even screwed up recipes from Fear and ID10-T)
I replied somewhere at the bottom of this, I'm still learning how this site works but I have only used drop method at all when it was a super small percentage of something, and USUALLY even then I used a scale also. Like 1-4 drops for the whole 30 ml or something, never just as a means of calculation. Thank you though!! Good to know I'm not the only one who questions drop sizes!
Maybe that's what part of my problem is.... My brain doesn't know how to "pair" flavors. Like I'm not one that's going to think to put sweet rice in with light honey dew and vanilla swirl. (Just saw that one online) my brain doesn't work that way. I'm like oh that's good! Or oh that's not. I am one of those people that's like "thank GOD someone thought to put raisins and cinnamon together on bread!!" Or "I wonder who thought Mac and cheese would be good? I sure am grateful!!" I'm def not the one who is behind any great flavor thought like that.... And I'm ok with that, that's not why I mix, I'm more of a find a mix I like and replicate it for cheap.... Ima bargain Hunter lol but you know it's bad when I can't even do that much right!
Just remember, certain brands have specific recipes that only they know. They might also know some of the in's and outs of the flavors. For example, Capella's Vanilla Custard can be bought... But, they have two different versions. Version 1 has Acrolein, which studies found can lead to popcorn lung. Because of that scare, they switched to Version 2. (On a side note, I don't think the Acrolein is so minute, there is so little you really shouldn't worry about it from vaping). Because of that scare, they switched to selling just the new version, but the old version can still be had, and is used by recipe. They taste totally different, and I think V1 is a thousand times better. Juice companies may still use V1 , but juice flavoring companies may sell V2.. it would totally change the taste profile.
So if there's a juice made by a company that tastes awesome, then that's just that company's good recipe. People might try their best to reverse engineer it, but they may not add the flavors that make that recipe stand out.
I'm sure someone's already suggested this.... start simple. Start with making 30mg of your base (pg/vg/nicotine... no flavors). Vape that for a few minutes. It should have a slightly sweet taste from the pg... almost un noticable. Then add two drops of one flavor, like strawberry... Mix thoroughly, then try again. You'll start to get a hint of the flavor or it could be strong. But see how that changes. Try a few drops more and see how it changes even still. keep adding two drops at a time and you'll start to see how the flavor turns from good to bad. When you get an idea, look back at your notes. If that strawberry tasted good at 4 drops, but had a hint of the bad taste at 5 drops.. then you know that flavor's cutoff strength and you should have a good basic strawberry.
From there, you can start to experiment. Maybe use a flavor you've heard before... like strawberry ice cream. Take your strawberry flavoring, reduce it by %25ish, and then add a drop or two of Capella's vanilla bean ice cream. Start the flavor experiment again. Find a good ratio of those two that make it taste good.
Sometimes, that's all you need, is a simple flavor. If there's a flavor that adds a "pizzaz" to their ice cream, perhaps you could research to what made that certain flavor. For example, some company may add add such a low amount of menthol to crisp up their ice cream flavor, but you can't taste the menthol. See if others came up with a way to emulate that company's recipe. Many times, recipes are close, but fairly often it's not %100 exact to everyone.
Just start simple... work from there.
Acrolein is present due to thermal degradation (over heating) of glycerol (vg) not added to a flavoring. Certain diketones are added to flavorings for a buttery taste, Diacetyl being the main one of concern for some.
Last edited:
Sometimes, that's all you need, is a simple flavor. If there's a flavor that adds a "pizzaz" to their ice cream, perhaps you could research to what made that certain flavor. For example, some company may add add such a low amount of menthol to crisp up their ice cream flavor, but you can't taste the menthol. See if others came up with a way to emulate that company's recipe. Many times, recipes are close, but fairly often it's not %100 exact to everyone
I just had that aha moment again, menthol to make ice cream pop? What a wonderful idea, I’m glad people thought of that!! Haha thanks for the advice, I’ll do that! Thx again to all!
I just had that aha moment again, menthol to make ice cream pop? What a wonderful idea, I’m glad people thought of that!! Haha thanks for the advice, I’ll do that! Thx again to all!
maybe try buying some 'one shot' blend concentrates to use while you work on practicing your mixing skills? Real Flavors has some Super Concentrates that are decent stand alone flavors, as does One Stop DIY Shop. Bull City Flavors has recipe packs you can order that give you all the flavors for a recipe along with the percentages to mix them all at. And of course you can buy something like Wayne Walker's one shot flavor bases.but its really going awful!! lol ive made several juices over time, and whether i just make them myself based on what sounds *smells* good, or follow a recipe, it seems i just make awful liquid tar or vicks!
I think that you have to separate natural flavoring from Synthetics. I make a very simple formula. Simply 18% Cooks Peppermint Extract, 7% Pure Ethanol like Everpure or if you are in a restrictive state (Like California), Pure 99.5% Ethanol for perfuming can be found on Ebay.
I don't need to steep. When I used to mix I found that Natural Flavors taste best right after they are mixed and don't need Steep Time.
Hi @ashharmon; and welcome to ECF!
With all your diligent research, you probably already know this (but I'm going to say it anyway because I have not yet seen it stated in this thread), but replicating commercial recipes (cloning) is probably the most difficult thing to do in DIY. You are diving directly into the deepest end of the DIY pool... I can imagine you are frustrated.
Cloning is fraught with challenges. Identifying the flavor manufacturer(s). Identifying the specific flavor concentrates. Identifying concentrate percentages.
Then there is the challenge of how one ingredient interacts with the next. For example, compare Herbs de p
Provence and a classic Italian herb blend; the ingredients are very similar, but depending on ratios and secondary accent notes, they end up tasting very different. DIY is not really any different. Too much, too little, or the wrong concentrate; and the recipe will go in completely different directions.
And, that is assuming the commercial liquid is being made with ingredients we have access to. There are concentrate manufactures, who do not sell retail products. They only sell large scale bulk orders. They can also custom create a concentrate, or even complete blend, that is a singular "one-off" product for a single client. This can make a "true" clone virtually impossible.
I say that, not to discourage you any further, but to maybe help you set more realistic expectations/goals. It can often be less challenging to create something "like," or "similar to," a commercial offering; than it is to exactly replicate it.
What is it you like about a particular commercial e-liquid? What flavor(s) are standing out to you? How? Why? How would you describe it? Giving some careful thought/analysis can help you set more realistic goals for what you want to create. The more specific, precise, descriptive you can be; the more likely you can find a suitable ingredient to achieve your desired result.
Even then it is going to require time and patience. Trial and error. If the reward (savings, personal satisfaction, a new hobby) is not worth the effort, then maybe DIY cloning is not for you... at least right now.
Instead, maybe taking some of the more important characteristics of the commercial e-liquid you like, and identifying a single one-shot blend, or simple combination of concentrates that meets your criteria, is a better way to go. Don't focus on it being "just like blank." Who knows; maybe you will find something even better!
Let's take the Butter Brew (Yami Vapor) you mentioned as an example. I have no idea what it is and have never vaped it. Research lead me to VaporDNA. Butterscotch is all that comes up in the official description. Reading the review section, I learn a little more: cream soda, butterscotch, creamy, buttery, thick, rich, and some (apparently fictitious harry Potter) beverage called Butter Beer. So now I research butter beer. Evidently this really exists; at least at Universal Studios. Though the exact ingredients aren't disclosed, it appears basic ingredients are cream soda, ice cream, whipped cream, and butterscotch syrup.
If you have some of the real stuff, vape on it, and consider: what about the above descriptions can you taste? What is most prominent? What are more subtle/secondary? What are you tasting that isn't in the descriptions? Write down your observations.
Now you have a choice:
1. You can start from scratch.
2. You can start with someone else's efforts; and tweak to your own liking.
If you have (as you said) "nearly every flavor ever made," and you have a good understanding of what each one has to offer, and how they differ; building from scratch may be the way to go. Start with the base/primary flavor note... get it correct; then move on to the next most prominent note... get it correct, AND working with the first note; then the next... etc., etc. Build in layers. Don't try to do it all at once... this rarely works.
If you haven't spent much/any time working with your individual ingredients, and it is going to be basically grasping in the dark; maybe starting with a well reviewed, and described recipe, is the smarter choice.
Start with reasonable expectations; this is not likely going to be a case of "win," or "fail." More likely, it is going to be more along the lines of: "close," "kinda-sorta", "not really," or "not even remotely the same." Referring to your previous notes: What is right about it? What is wrong? Does it seem like it may be the right flavor concentrates, and just not the right percentages? Or, are the concentrates all together wrong (is it a butterscotch hard candy taste when you are wanting more of a butterscotch syrup flavor)?
Here are a few general DIY tips I found helpful:
Make only ONE adjustment at a time. If one starts making multiple changes (percentages, ingredients), it is almost impossible to isolate what each change is actually doing, and whether it is helping, or hurting, the overall goal. (This goes for hardware changes too... different hardware = different taste)
Don't neglect sweeteners. "Sweet" is one of the easiest tastes to perceive... even with horribly abused taste buds. Because of this, many commercial e-liquids use lots of sweeteners. Many DIYers find they like less and less sweet in their mixes, as their taste buds recover; and tend to reduce, or even completely remove them, from their recipes. Just because they no longer need/want sweeteners; doesn't mean you don't want/need them.
Sweeteners can have an impact on a recipe. They can mute flavors (requiring more, or different concentrates), soften sharp notes, thicken mouthfeel. It is often more helpful to leave the sweetener(s) for last. Then, start low, and only add as needed. Once the "sweet" note is right it may be necessary to go back and adjust (and on rare occasions; replace), one or more flavors... it's all a balancing act.
Don't neglect what time may do for/to a recipe. The simple passage of time can have a significant impact on haw a mixture tastes. Don't throw out (or repurpose) your test mixes (esp. while you are creating). Instead, make sure they are labeled (so you know what is in them, and when they were made), and revisit them from time to time. This can be useful when you hit a creative wall. Even if they are still not 100% "there," they can reveal a missing "it," that you have been searching for. (Looking at the basic Butter Brew descriptions; I would not be surprised if this didn't need two weeks of aging before all the flavors matured.)
If you are impatient, like me, one can shorten the total timeline required by making several test batches, with one single different adjustment in each, all at the same time. Then test separately. If the adjustment is a fail; try something else. For the tests that show promise; the single tests may be combined to see if the cumulative result is pleasing... or, if one change is going to conflict with the other (one benefit of doing this; is there is little to no additional aging required).
Try to make informed choices. This is still not much more than wild-a**ed guessing, but I do a couple of things to move the needle a bit more in my favor:
For flavor concentrates:
- research multiple vendors that display customer comments/reviews (Bull City Flavors, e-cig express, and Nicotine River, are some of my starting points).
- E-Liquid Recipes, .................., and Reddit, can also be informative.
- I pay more attention to the comments and reviews than I do manufacturer/vendor descriptions. Mfg./vendors are more interested in sales vs. accuracy.
- Because I know taste is so subjective; I look for consensus/patterns. If twenty people describe a concentrate as "tastes like candied fruit," and only two say "the most realistic flesh fruit ever," I am betting that this will more likely be candy-like to me. It is not always the case; but it is more often than than not.
- Fewer reviews don't mean it is bad; it just means it is more of a gamble. The converse is true to; even hundreds of "best concentrate ever!" reviews, does not guarantee a winner for me... or my intended application.
- Remember that single-reviewer sources, like Wayne Walker's FlavorBook, is still only one person's perception. Usefulness depends on how similar your palate is to the reviewer. (This can be said of any individual review; no matter the author's skill and/or reputation... and why I look more for consensus.)
For choosing recipes:
- I try to weigh recipes by how detailed (thought out, described) the author is about his/her creation. Things like what there intent was, why they chose particular ingredients, and what they think of the end result; all give me more confidence in the "purposefulness" of the creation, and the likelihood of it succeeding. (Again; no guarantee, but more winners than losers... or at least something I can work with.)
- Same for recipe comments/reviews. I will consider more carefully, the review that says "why" it is good/bad, than the generic like/didn't like comments. It doesn't invalidate those opinions; but it provides me more information I might be able to apply to my own judgement.
- I start, by looking at the highest, most reviewed recipes (Doesn't mean I will mix them; I just start my research there).
- (IMO) Recipes with only one rating are rated by the creator only.
- (IMO) Recipes with NO rating are only a work in progress, or the author didn't care for it enough to bother rating it. I tend to ignore these unless I am desperate.
1. From All The Flavors: Butter Beer by SlashaLO
or
2. From E-liquid Recipes (ELR): Butterbeer by Ken O'Where (sorry; ECF does not permit ELR links)
- Status
