So this is what I just don't understand.. Why hasn't Big Tobacco jumped in?

[shanagan]

The products are easy to manufacture - from PV's to juices. BT has the sway politically & financially to make vaping a viable alternative to smoking, and there's no reason to assume they would not rake in money hand over fist. Additionally, this is a product which could help them to promote harm reduction & safer alternatives, but as of yet, there're only rumors of a Phillip-Morris product in development - rumors which have been around for YEARS.

Why haven't they jumped into the vaping market?

Discuss.

 

[DaMulta]

Because they have been doing study’s overseas, and have been doing them for some time. It's already on the market in some countries.......

What they are working on is different tho....More or less it will vaporize tobacco.


FDA will not hit them like they did with E-Cigs cause they will have studies backing theirs up from front to back....just watch and see.

 

[shanagan]

DaMulta - vaporize actual tobacco? Um, yuck.

It's just weird to me - the fact that they *do* have the money to do extensive testing & bring this product to a wider market makes it seem like a no-brainer to co-opt a proven product rather than create some "new" product which sounds, frankly, kind of disgusting and doesn't sound like it falls in line with the harm reduction angle at all.

So is BT's goal to keep us dying? To what end, for goodness sake?

 

[Kargonet]

I've asked this many times myself.

When we first started this we called a few of the smoke shops here to ask if they had parts or juice. Most of them acted insulted that I would even ask. There is one place carries overpriced e-cigs in kits and a 7ml bottle of juice will cost you $30 and DON'T EVEN ask to smell it or even see the bottle before you buy it. My point is, rather than be ...... that I asked if you carried e-cig stuff why not look at it as another revenue stream and at least give it a shot.

I don't understand why BT isn't all over this trying to get their cut from all of us, makes no sense at all. They could turn out THOUSANDS of gallons of juice and make a ton of money just off of that and cartomizers, seriously. How convenient would it be to be able to pick up a couple of standard flavors, nic levels at the convenience or grocery store? Surely their R&D departments are watching? I know for myself I'm definitely glad to be vaping some watermelon or cinnamon candy instead of smoking an analog but in the beginning pure heaven would have been to have a juice that tasted exactly like a Marlboro Smooth. You can't tell me that they can't accomplish this.

But if BT did get involved I think they would have to be regulated to only being able to use the things for juice that we use now. No MAOIs, nothing added, just simple juice and that's it. Otherwise we're back in the same boat with a different medium.

 

[shanagan]

OK, so this is their answer to our beloved PV's? Really?

Oh, now I see this is the newer version;

Cigarettes are inserted into it? Seriously?

I think I'll keep my ego, thanks. WTH?

 

[shanagan]

I've asked this many times myself.

When we first started this we called a few of the smoke shops here to ask if they had parts or juice. Most of them acted insulted that I would even ask. There is one place carries overpriced e-cigs in kits and a 7ml bottle of juice will cost you $30 and DON'T EVEN ask to smell it or even see the bottle before you buy it. My point is, rather than be ...... that I asked if you carried e-cig stuff why not look at it as another revenue stream and at least give it a shot.

I don't understand why BT isn't all over this trying to get their cut from all of us, makes no sense at all. They could turn out THOUSANDS of gallons of juice and make a ton of money just off of that and cartomizers, seriously. How convenient would it be to be able to pick up a couple of standard flavors, nic levels at the convenience or grocery store? Surely their R&D departments are watching? I know for myself I'm definitely glad to be vaping some watermelon or cinnamon candy instead of smoking an analog but in the beginning pure heaven would have been to have a juice that tasted exactly like a Marlboro Smooth. You can't tell me that they can't accomplish this.

But if BT did get involved I think they would have to be regulated to only being able to use the things for juice that we use now. No MAOIs, nothing added, just simple juice and that's it. Otherwise we're back in the same boat with a different medium.

Yes, just by looking at what their idea of an e-cig should be... could you imagine what they'd put in the juice if left to their own devices?

 

[motox]

They may be thinking of something like the Ploom...

 

[shanagan]

Interesting. But still begs the question - if you get away from the 4:20 angle altogether - why? Why continue to offer us the same carcinogens in a different form?

 

[banjo]

Lets all hope that big tobacco doesn't jump into the market, and I doubt that they will, since it would undermine their own product (analogs), and they would devise a way to extract more money out of us with higher prices. I'm quite happy with the suppliers that we have now.

 

[hiram13pm]

Probably the fact that the Chinese hold all the patents for atomizer designs... it's such a simple mechanism, it's kinda hard to come up with a "new" one. Why do you think they're all manufactured in China?

 

[motox]

Interesting. But still begs the question - if you get away from the 4:20 angle altogether - why? Why continue to offer us the same carcinogens in a different form?

Dunno about the carcinogen angle - this seems very similar to a PV, using pre-packaged "pods" instead of an electrical atomizer and e-juice. Their site says that the tobacco is mixed with PG and VG and then heated to produce a vapor - sounds vaguely familiar, eh? If I get some money to burn in the future I may pick up a starter kit and will report back with the results.

 

[shanagan]

Banjo, I think I'm just thinking down the road. I'm with you - I love my suppliers, I'm happy to support them, and will continue to do so for as long as the FDA allows it. But if BT had a hand in this, in these specific products, we wouldn't be staring down the FDA's barrel so squarely - and inadequately represented. (I say that with NO disrespect toward the organizations and companies that are putting themselves out there on our behalf - THANK YOU - but there's money, and then there's BT money.)

And not only do we have BT "against" us, we also have Big Pharma.

Would BT ultimately find a way to create a vaporized nicotine that bears little resemblance to what we vape now? Yes. But would that make it possible for the "little guys" to keep brewing their magic for us - legally? Yes to that one as well.

 

[cozzicon]

Banjo, I think I'm just thinking down the road. I'm with you - I love my suppliers, I'm happy to support them, and will continue to do so for as long as the FDA allows it. But if BT had a hand in this, in these specific products, we wouldn't be staring down the FDA's barrel so squarely - and inadequately represented. (I say that with NO disrespect toward the organizations and companies that are putting themselves out there on our behalf - THANK YOU - but there's money, and then there's BT money.)

And not only do we have BT "against" us, we also have Big Pharma.

Would BT ultimately find a way to create a vaporized nicotine that bears little resemblance to what we vape now? Yes. But would that make it possible for the "little guys" to keep brewing their magic for us - legally? Yes to that one as well.

Ya know- I have to do a reality check here.

At face value, the Njoy Vs. FDA case is not going badly for us. True, there is no decision. But the judge is asking the right questions. I do not think we are inadequately represented in this particular case.

We are very lucky in fact.

 

[shanagan]

Dunno about the carcinogen angle - this seems very similar to a PV, using pre-packaged "pods" instead of an electrical atomizer and e-juice. Their site says that the tobacco is mixed with PG and VG and then heated to produce a vapor - sounds vaguely familiar, eh? If I get some money to burn in the future I may pick up a starter kit and will report back with the results.

Yikes - it catalyzes butane to generate heat? That's... extreme. lol

Let us know if you do.. but I'm not sure about that thing at all - and yes, I know that sounds funny, considering.

 

[shanagan]

Ya know- I have to do a reality check here.

At face value, the Njoy Vs. FDA case is not going badly for us. True, there is no decision. But the judge is asking the right questions. I do not think we are inadequately represented in this particular case.

We are very lucky in fact.

I understand your position and I agree with you - on this particular issue, this particular case. But I do not see this playing out well, what with GSK now hitting from a "ban dissolvable nicotine" angle - the NJOY case is only one facet - and unless and until we have the kind of money to fund the studies that would get the FDA to back down for good... it's an issue. And I do not see the FDA backing down willingly based solely upon the NJOY case. I wish it weren't so, with all of my heart.

That takes absolutely nothing away from the wonderful work that CASAA and others are doing on our behalf.

 

[shanagan]

Probably the fact that the Chinese hold all the patents for atomizer designs... it's such a simple mechanism, it's kinda hard to come up with a "new" one. Why do you think they're all manufactured in China?

Sorry I missed this earlier. I suppose that must be it?

 

[cozzicon]

Sorry I missed this earlier. I suppose that must be it?

After talking to a number of mod makers, and resellers, who would have the ability to make an atomizer:

They fear being sued in the face of a significant investment to mass produce the product. It's not like e-juice which uses things that have already been made. The manufacturing of hardware item requires a significant investment that American companies do not want to risk.

Even if the atomizer was made *offshore* the investment is still lost if the market closes.

The Chinese, ironically, are not as afraid of risk these days. And all of the American companies are either making "battery tubes" or e-juice. The two things that can be made cheaply and without the mass production investment.

The patents more than likely would not stand because of prior art.

 

[shanagan]

After talking to a number of mod makers, and resellers, who would have the ability to make an atomizer:

They fear being sued in the face of a significant investment to mass produce the product. It's not like e-juice which uses things that have already been made. The manufacturing of hardware item requires a significant investment that American companies do not want to risk.

Even if the atomizer was made *offshore* the investment is still lost if the market closes.

The Chinese, ironically, are not as afraid of risk these days. And all of the American companies are either making "battery tubes" or e-juice. The two things that can be made cheaply and without the mass production investment.

The patents more than likely would not stand because of prior art.

Very interesting.

 

[hiram13pm]

Now if the big tobacco companies were smart, they'd pay through the nose to lease the patent rights from the chinese who hold them. They may already be in negotiations, for all we know. If that happened, you'd be amazed at how quickly all our FDA issues would be resolved. As it stands now, Big Tobacco and Big Pharma stand to lose huge amounts in profits, Big Gubbermint stands to lose the cash cow it's been relying on for the last couple of decades, and self-righteous moralizing ASH-holes stand to lose their favorite whipping-boy... us. Of course there's resistance.... but eventually, somebody has to cave in and go with the flow. E-cigs are growing in popularity exponentially... hell, they're selling pot out of storefronts in california now because so many people are for it... sooner or later, one of these big players is going to switch sides and go after all the money to be made. Pharma, Tobacco, or Government will go for a "cut".

The Crusaders, OTOH....well, they can just .....

 

[shanagan]

Now if the big tobacco companies were smart, they'd pay through the nose to lease the patent rights from the chinese who hold them. They may already be in negotiations, for all we know. If that happened, you'd be amazed at how quickly all our FDA issues would be resolved. As it stands now, Big Tobacco and Big Pharma stand to lose huge amounts in profits, Big Gubbermint stands to lose the cash cow it's been relying on for the last couple of decades, and self-righteous moralizing ASH-holes stand to lose their favorite whipping-boy... us. Of course there's resistance.... but eventually, somebody has to cave in and go with the flow. E-cigs are growing in popularity exponentially... hell, they're selling pot out of storefronts in california now because so many people are for it... sooner or later, one of these big players is going to switch sides and go after all the money to be made. Pharma, Tobacco, or Government will go for a "cut".

The Crusaders, OTOH....well, they can just .....

I agree with you on every point. I realize that means we'll eventually be taxed out the for our juice - can't bear to leave something sinful untaxed, you know - but at the risk of sounding a little like a crusader myself it would be worth it to get these to the mainstream for the healthcare benefits to our country alone.