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Society for Research on Nicotine and Tobacco conference

Discussion in 'Medical Research' started by Kate, May 1, 2009.

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  1. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    The SRNT Conference has just finished and some information was shared there on Ruyan research.

    Society for Research on Nicotine and Tobacco


    1.) on page 139, abstract POS5-11:
    The abstract gives new information on the composition of the mist produced by Ruyan brand, indicating that nicotine delivery (16 mg carts) would be less per puff than from a regular cigarette.

    2.) on page 149, abstract POS5-50:
    Bullen (CTRU Auckland) et. al:
    Abstract gives first results of a trial study, comparing Ruyan brand (16 mg), placebo, Nicorette inhalator and normal cigarette, regarding effects on cravings, some maximum plasma concentrations and speed of delivery.

    Also, the contact data of the leading authors is given...

    I've been asked to see if anyone can help with this question -

    "... how would the reported values for plasma concentrations appear in the time vs plasma nicotine diagramm (I remember you had such a standard diagram somewhere posted). Guess the units should read ‘ng/ml’ (typo?), but values appear somehow weird (very low)..."

    I think this is the graph being referred to:


  2. Tom09

    Tom09 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2009
    Thanks a lot, Kate, for getting this information out. I was somehow irritated, when I first read the low numbers for peak plasma nicotine concentration reported in the Bullen et al. abstract. Thought, if they might have lost a digit, used different units, or whatever.
    Good you got that message from another professional [thread=15034] (message from Eissenberg) [/thread], which set into perspective and confirmed that first data reported indicates relatively low effectiveness (of this specific Ruyan brand), indeed.
    Now, what this means for users, especially those who want to trade traditional cigarettes to vaping?
  3. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    Hi Tom :) Thanks for the tips on links and contact with Dr Eissenberg.

    I think you're saying that your question has been answered by Eissenberg here - ************************************************************************************************************************

    A discussion has started there about the low nicotine levels in blood found with the Ruyan research.

    I don't understand it myself, many people have reported nicotine overdose here but if the research is correct then that's very hard to do.

    I fully expect some people to start taking higher doses of nicotine because of these results.
  4. Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah

    Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Mar 9, 2009
    West Allis, WI
    Sooooooo - does this mean that Ruyan is going to submit this data to the FDA and commence the approval process to market/distribute (possibly mfg?) in the US?
  5. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    Ruyan say that they do not sell tobacco products, they might use these findings to wiggle out of being a drug too. That leaves them uncategorised or a new category?

    That seems to be their strategy anyway and I'd trust them to have a good idea of legal possibilities. They've done all the work for vaping so far with research, I'm sure they're not doing it for nothing.
  6. Tom09

    Tom09 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2009
    Yes, I think that Eissenberg put into perspective what has not been very clear to non-professionals (like me) from reading the Bullen et al. abstract.

    That’s exactly why I was trying to be hesitant and dearly hoped that you might have got some answer.
    The ecig nicotine sword has two sides (at least): overdosing versus not too much nicotine to supress cravings (and back to pyro). The data out is just a report of the first results for a specific device and fluid. Nothing published, nothing independently confirmed. There’s also the other abstract by Laugesen, where he reports very different nicotine levels in the mist produced by two different devices. Anyhow, I now feel more comfortable than before when I read about extensive use (in strengh or vaped volume).
  7. taz3cat

    taz3cat Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 2, 2008
    Port Arthur, Texas
  8. Tugger

    Tugger Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 17, 2009
    There's a possible upside here. I've been concerned that what I'm missing in vaping is some magic unknown chemical in smoke that makes analogs more satisfying, and no one is probably going to go looking for it to improve our product.

    This shows that there is some possibility that this may not be the case. Regardless, I'm not gonna be the one to try 160 mg/ml. What is that, like 16% by volume? It'd be a nicotine sludge.
  9. Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah

    Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Mar 9, 2009
    West Allis, WI
    The upside to this is that there is a study out there, done by an independent testing authority, that shows that the vapor produced by our PV's has minimal risks associated with it.....

    As long as the nicotine in the individual batches is closely monitored and tested for content control, a study such as this should have significant bearing to the FDA, HealthCanada, and some of the other countries looking for this kind of testing before OK'ing the products for sale..... If you check out some of the docs on embargo'd shipments coming into the US, that's the FDA's beef......these have not gone through FDA approval...

    The only question is - is this excerpt from the original New Zeland Study for Ruyan, or is this a new study to replicate the same results of the original? Because weren't there some "questions to the validity" of the original?
  10. Vapinginjapan

    Vapinginjapan Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 22, 2009
    My theory of the low level of the nicotine spike is this.

    It would seem that Nicotine is best absorbed in an alkaline enviornment.

    Cigarette manufacturers add amonia to their cigarettes to aid in the absorption of nicotine in their cigarettes. E-cigarettes lack this function, so we need to consume more nicotine to actually absorb the same amount.

    How much of an effect this plays is questionable, and I don't have an answer for it.
  11. silverfox

    silverfox Full Member

    Apr 20, 2009
    if you take a look at the chart in Kate's 1st post it starts to make sense when you look at the time involved...the testing stated the results after 5 mins, which shows a huge spike in concentration in that 5 min window, but, after 30 mins, or 50 mins, all the delivery systems are very similar....

    ISAWHIM Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 15, 2009
    Jacksonville, Florida
    By the research...
    From what I have found, in relation to the research results...

    With "Certified Ruyan liquid", which uses synthetic nicotine, which does not qualify for "Natural Nicotine", and can not be measured the same way... (The test does not indicate that they tested the Ruyan product for levels of nicotine, they only state the "Marked", label, and do not mention if this was pre-synthetic production, or the new synthetic production.) There are several versions of nicotine. It is not a simple compound like water or carbon monoxide.

    By the statistics/measurements, the "Certified Ruyan liquid", appears within range. However, you can OD on the patch, which shows as the lowest value on the chart.

    You also have to remember, "Ruyan" is not the only person selling liquid as "Ruyan". There are many counterfeit sellers, who are not using "Ruyan's certified synthetic nicotine", they are selling nicotine extracts, and commercial/industrial poison/salts as nicotine. (Mostly the same thing, but they do not have the same reactive test results.)

    "Plasma in nicotine", is a poor test. It shows no relation from one device to another, and does not indicate the bodies reaction to nicotine. It does indicate the volumes absorbed, and decaying in time, as the body reacts to the specific "Type" of nicotine and delivery "Dose".

    Cigarettes, delivered as a blast, directly into the blood, through the lungs, with carrier chemicals in the mixture, rises fast, and peaks where the body has "Limited", due to chemical resistance with anti-bodies or natural liver filtration, or saturation due to osmosis through the lung-walls.

    On the contrast, the patch, delivering a long-delay as it trickles through the skin, slides under the reactive radar in your body, delivering a constant feed which usually results in a compounding escalating effect. This can result in an unexpected heart-attack, where the user may not have needed nicotine, but it is uncontrollably being delivered as it passes through the glands and releases from the water in the fatty cells. (Removal of the patch will result in hours of nicotine delivery after the removal.)

    The vaporizer was not in that test, only the charts/values related to inhalers, which are liquid volumes, similar to a patch, and not a true "Mist", or evaporated mist, as a vaporizer delivers. (Droplet size of an inhaler is large, and designed to deliver liquid to the nasal passage or throat, by majority. While a vaporizer delivers smaller droplets, intended for the lungs if inhaled, or the mouth if taken only orally.)

    The missing data from that study, is the actual level of consumed nicotine in relation to the bodies output reaction. Blood-pressure, heart-speed, respiratory gaseous exchange, and self regulation habit, as opposed to a fixed-delivered dose, is what determines risk.

    If self-regulated gratification is reached before high levels of risk are reached, compared to something like a cigarette, or an unregulated patch, this would determine the potential level of risk of the user. (Patches are unregulated, as they can not be effectively metered. The function is based off absorption and level of perspiration, both are not a standard and uncontrollable by the user.)

    Also note...

    Those values all start at 0mg... That indicates the tests were done on a non-user, without resistance, with potential perfect health, and with a potential inability to fight-off or normalize the bombardment of foreign matter being delivered into the body.

    The chart also stops after one minute, and you can clearly see that all except the patch, are tapering away from high-concentration to low-concentration. The patch is on a steady incline upwards on that chart, even after one hour.

    What does it show???

    Cigarette, Full peak absorption after ~7 minutes.
    Inhaler, Full peak absorption after ~3 minutes.
    Gum, Full peak absorption after ~30 minutes.
    Patch, Full peak absorption after ~60+ minutes.

    That is a measure of the beginning of the efficacy.
  13. silverfox

    silverfox Full Member

    Apr 20, 2009
    Holy Cow!!....someones been doin their
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