Something I Don't Understand

[Saintscruiser]

There is something I just can't wrap my head around and it bothers me that people don't realize how secure they are in their salvation through Jesus Christ.

I've heard people say that you can lose your salvation. My question is 'how?' It has nothing to do with what a human being does, one way or the other. I've heard people say that you can throw away your salvation. Poppycock! It has everything to do with the Promise of Almighty God. I will delve into more of this either later tonight or tomorrow as I'm about to go to ceramics. Just call this a teaser. I used to write tv commercials and this would cover maybe a 25 second read! "News at 11!"

 

[Saintscruiser]

I'mmmmmmmmmm back! I have those Scriptures, so I want to post them.

John 10:27-30 - (27) "My sheep listen to My voice. I know them, and they follow Me. (28) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand. (29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand. (30) I and the Father are One.

Now I have heard people say that man has the choice to turn from God and go down a sinful path. Yep.....I've done that. "A little of this won't hurt," or "just a bit of that" won't hurt. Yeah it does. God won't allow us, as His children to stray too far without Him picking us up by the nap of our necks and placing us back on the right path. Even we can't keep ourselves out of God's Hand. It has nothing to do with what we do, but everything concerning God's character and promise. If you are firmly planted in the palm of Almighty God the Father and God the Son, who is strong enough to snatch you out of God's hand. The answer is: NO ONE. If you are a 'blood bought born again' Christian, no one can take that from you. God is not an Indian giver. That would fall back on us being in control and perfect. There was only One person who lived a sinless life and that was Jesus Christ.

So rest easy in the palm of The Man called Jesus, and know that regardless of what happens, you are safe and secure!

 

[Alaricnj]

There is something I just can't wrap my head around and it bothers me that people don't realize how secure they are in their salvation through Jesus Christ.

I've heard people say that you can lose your salvation. My question is 'how?' It has nothing to do with what a human being does, one way or the other. I've heard people say that you can throw away your salvation. Poppycock! It has everything to do with the Promise of Almighty God. I will delve into more of this either later tonight or tomorrow as I'm about to go to ceramics. Just call this a teaser. I used to write tv commercials and this would cover maybe a 25 second read! "News at 11!"

Ceramics? Do you make pots?

 

[Saintscruiser]

The lady at the studio can pour pots from slip into a mold. I haven't done one as yet as I'm working on a very ornate vase. I only, thus far, go on Monday afternoons from 4-7 p.m. I've been painting in an underglaze and all paints, except acrylic, have to have 3 coats of paint. Since I was using 5 different colors, it's only taken me forever to get to this firing.

I clean the pieces, paint them using their paints, and have her fire it. The studio is at the senior citizens locale and cheap....cheap.....cheap. This vase that I've been working on so long is priced at $8.00, no matter what I do. Talk about low cost presents for birthdays and Christmas! It gets me out of the house doing something I enjoy.

 

[Alaricnj]

The lady at the studio can pour pots from slip into a mold. I haven't done one as yet as I'm working on a very ornate vase. I only, thus far, go on Monday afternoons from 4-7 p.m. I've been painting in an underglaze and all paints, except acrylic, have to have 3 coats of paint. Since I was using 5 different colors, it's only taken me forever to get to this firing.

I clean the pieces, paint them using their paints, and have her fire it. The studio is at the senior citizens locale and cheap....cheap.....cheap. This vase that I've been working on so long is priced at $8.00, no matter what I do. Talk about low cost presents for birthdays and Christmas! It gets me out of the house doing something I enjoy.

Sounds great. Glad your enjoying it. Im a ceramic artist, i make functional ware on a wheel. Ran across your post and saw "ceramics" and was intrigued. Its a very enjoyable art for me.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Sounds great. Glad your enjoying it. Im a ceramic artist, i make functional ware on a wheel. Ran across your post and saw "ceramics" and was intrigued. Its a very enjoyable art for me.

What a cool artist you are! Awesome! I wish I could use a potter's wheel, but since I have fibromyalgia, I can't do it. Now I do paint on glass, wood, candles and anything else that will stand still long enough (when I am able). I love taking raw materials and creating. Being disabled, I find self-worth in my crafts. When people like my items enough to spend hard earned dollars, I'm still amazed. I also make costume jewelry, knitted hats for newborns, crochet potholders, and other assorted things. I bore easily, so I find that by doing many different crafts at once keeps my interest peeked. Do you have any pictures?

You know, it's in Scripture.....God is the potter and we are His clay, as He molds and makes us into willing vessels to do His work.

 

[Alaricnj]

What a cool artist you are! Awesome! I wish I could use a potter's wheel, but since I have fibromyalgia, I can't do it. Now I do paint on glass, wood, candles and anything else that will stand still long enough (when I am able). I love taking raw materials and creating. Being disabled, I find self-worth in my crafts. When people like my items enough to spend hard earned dollars, I'm still amazed. I also make costume jewelry, knitted hats for newborns, crochet potholders, and other assorted things. I bore easily, so I find that by doing many different crafts at once keeps my interest peeked. Do you have any pictures?

You know, it's in Scripture.....God is the potter and we are His clay, as He molds and makes us into willing vessels to do His work.

I sell on a website called Etsy. Alot of artists are on their. My shop link is hereCeramic and pottery art hand thrown high fired by CeramicsByMike

 

[HyOnLyph]

Howdy all, Long time not been here. I sort of backed off from the forums lately because of business and responsibilities.
I was getting reaquainted with this forum and saw this thread. I also noticed that no one had really responded to the question.

I'll be blunt... I don't really have a firm position on this. Although, I lean toward eternal security. But I find that for one to take an adamant position on this issue, requires us to either justify or completely ignore some scriptures.

I guess my point is, it appears from scripture that one might be able to lose their salvation. BUT if so, it would be pretty difficult to do so..AND there is an argument backed by scripture that says if one falls away, then they were never part of the body in the first place. My position is... why would we even want to try? I know that it is in some folks nature to walk as close to the line as possible. They love to get as close to sin as possible without crossing the line. The problem with that is, when you are balancing on one side of a line... the littlest slip... and you've fallen across. Thrilling??? Maybe. But really stupid.

Here are a couple of links that discuss eternal salvation. I find that in most cases, when folks argue against certain scriptures, their arguement becomes kind of weak. In one case the author writes, "that scripture (about losing salvation) wasn't written for the believers. It was written to believers and unbelievers alike. Therefore it's not a statement that believers can lose their salvation" For a really inteligent guy, his arguement is silly, because if it's for both, believer and non-believer then it includes believers... thus they can lose their salvation too. Anyway... enjoy the links.

Bottom line... I find that the older I get, the more I enjoy the faithfulness of my Awesome Father, who loves me and keeps me.

C ya soon.
Hy

Can you lose your salvation?|Are Christians Eternally Secure?|Will sheep never perish? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Do These Passages Show You Can Lose Your Salvation? - Come Reason Ministries

 

[trukinlady]

Welcome back Hy!!

It's great to see you again!! It's been really quiet for awhile around here!

I hope we CVers can start to have some good discussions again!

 

[Saintscruiser]

Mike, I checked out your website and you ARE an ARTIST! You do beautiful work, and I am envious........BUT, since I'm a Christian, I had to ask forgiveness. You are very talented!

 

[Saintscruiser]

Howdy all, Long time not been here. I sort of backed off from the forums lately because of business and responsibilities.
I was getting reaquainted with this forum and saw this thread. I also noticed that no one had really responded to the question.

I'll be blunt... I don't really have a firm position on this. Although, I lean toward eternal security. But I find that for one to take an adamant position on this issue, requires us to either justify or completely ignore some scriptures.

I guess my point is, it appears from scripture that one might be able to lose their salvation. BUT if so, it would be pretty difficult to do so..AND there is an argument backed by scripture that says if one falls away, then they were never part of the body in the first place. My position is... why would we even want to try? I know that it is in some folks nature to walk as close to the line as possible. They love to get as close to sin as possible without crossing the line. The problem with that is, when you are balancing on one side of a line... the littlest slip... and you've fallen across. Thrilling??? Maybe. But really stupid.

Here are a couple of links that discuss eternal salvation. I find that in most cases, when folks argue against certain scriptures, their arguement becomes kind of weak. In one case the author writes, "that scripture (about losing salvation) wasn't written for the believers. It was written to believers and unbelievers alike. Therefore it's not a statement that believers can lose their salvation" For a really inteligent guy, his arguement is silly, because if it's for both, believer and non-believer then it includes believers... thus they can lose their salvation too. Anyway... enjoy the links.

Bottom line... I find that the older I get, the more I enjoy the faithfulness of my Awesome Father, who loves me and keeps me.

C ya soon.
Hy

Can you lose your salvation?|Are Christians Eternally Secure?|Will sheep never perish? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Do These Passages Show You Can Lose Your Salvation? - Come Reason Ministries

Hello Hy! Glad to see you!! Welcome back. Like you, I've been absent because of my husband's health, my health, and falling behind in my husband's business. My health has gone south because of all of the stress......BUT, 'I know Who I have believeth, and am persuaded that He is able, to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day!' Jesus hasn't brought me this far to drop me like a hot potato...even though some days feel like it. Pain has become worse, and can be difficult just to get through a day. But, I know my Savior is with me every step of the way, which I think is really cool, and carries me most days.

About salvation......I have another Scripture that supports my beliefs. John 6:37-40 - (37) "All that the Father gives me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never drive away. (38) For I have come down from heaven not to do My will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. (39) And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. (40) For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Let's do a search among the Gospels and list Scriptures talking about eternal life through Salvation. I'm just interested in what Jesus says, so that is why I say the Gospels. The words from the Savior are carved in granite, as far as I'm concerned. I think this will be a really cool search for all of us. Anyone game? I am!

 

[HyOnLyph]

Approaching it from a different perspective....
Scripture tells us that because of the work of Christ on the Cross, we ARE a new creation in Christ. Can a new creation be "uncreated"? It doesn't seem consistent to me. Therefore, I lean towards security in salvation.

As a side note but still relevant to the topic....
Consider that we are a new creature. We are born of the DNA of God himself. Not "becoming" a new creature. We ARE.. Is it possible, that as a new creature, we are not a human being that "needs healing". We are a creature that IS healthy. We just don't know it yet. As long as we believe that we "need" healing, we manifest the fruits of our beliefs. Sickness in need of healing. But when we begin to believe that we are the new healthy creation, we begin to manifest that which we believe... health. I ponder from time to time this thought and as I do, health seems to be a by-product of my considering that it's possible. And if/when I manifest the old man's sickness, it's because I forgot who I am.

I find that I used to believe I was sick, needing a savior to heal me. And all the while, I prayed and ask for healing. But I continued to manifest the sickness that I believed I had and was in need of deliverence from. One day, while lamenting my illness and struggles, I heard the Lord say, "why are you asking for what I have already provided? You ARE healthy. Just BE who I have Created you to BE."

As I began to consider the possibility... not really believing fully... just considering that it might be possible... sickness left and health began to manifest. Powerful stuff... this believing.

In our home, we have a framed Christmas card that my wife has put on the wall. It says "He became what we are, so that we could become what He is." Scripture supports that we ARE what He is.... one with the Father, new creations, the Law (of Grace) written on our hearts, Truth indwelling and so much more.

Being "transformed" is a matter of realizing (in our mind) who we are and resting in it. Just BE. His burden really is light if we allow ourselves to be who He has made us.

In the movie, The Matrix, there is a point where the nemis, Mr Smith keeps telling the hero that he is going to die, that it's inevitable. If you haven't seen it, in the movie, the hero's "old man" name is Mr Anderson. The evil Mr Smith says... "Here that Mr Anderson? That's the sound of inevitability. That's the sound of your death". And Mr Anderson does not refute the lies of his enemy. He simply says "My name is NEO" (neo = new) and proceeds to kick the enemies ..... He always was NEO, he just didn't know it. And when he bagan to believe in who he was, the neo man, he began to manifest the freedom of the Truth.

(stepping down from the soapbox now)

 

[Bluzeman]

I hope I'm allowed to post on this board. Not a member of this group but this topic got my interest.

I spent a number of years in a cult. Because of that, I don't think I can ever trust any church again, but that's another story. One good thing that came of it (maybe the only good thing) was that we were taught to study the bible on our own, using the tools available, e.g., concordance, Young's, Strong's, interlinear, and one of my favorites, a Bullinger Companion Bible, among others.

On to the topic at hand. I am of the "once saved, always saved" camp. I believe that Romans 10 9-10 are literal:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

No qualifiers, no "unless you do this or do that" or anything. Shall(shalt) is an absolute. No strings attached.

Now as far as Heavenly rewards, well that's a whole 'nother topic.

 

[trukinlady]

I hope I'm allowed to post on this board. Not a member of this group but this topic got my interest.

I spent a number of years in a cult. Because of that, I don't think I can ever trust any church again, but that's another story. One good thing that came of it (maybe the only good thing) was that we were taught to study the bible on our own, using the tools available, e.g., concordance, Young's, Strong's, interlinear, and one of my favorites, a Bullinger Companion Bible, among others.

On to the topic at hand. I am of the "once saved, always saved" camp. I believe that Romans 10 9-10 are literal:


No qualifiers, no "unless you do this or do that" or anything. Shall(shalt) is an absolute. No strings attached.

Now as far as Heavenly rewards, well that's a whole 'nother topic.

Hello Bluzeman;

Yes, you're allowed to post here. Welcome! I hope you feel comfortable here!

Thank God you were able to get out of a cult! Personally, I don't trust "organized religion" either. I believe Christians are His church, and I believe in salvation through Jesus. He came to earth in the flesh, died on the cross for our sins, rose again, and ascended to sit at the right hand of our Heavenly Father. He is the only way of salvation. I pray for those who are searching Him, and I pray He leads them down His Divine path.

I hope to hear more of your testimony!

 

[HyOnLyph]

I agree but what do we do with these scriptures?

Gal 5.. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Rom 11 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Rev 22... 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Those three scriptures (and many more) seem to indicate just as adamantly that we can lose the salvation that we have gained through Christ.

We can quote scriptures that say our side is right but we can't really refute the scriptures that state the other side. We can ignore them or we can say .... "hmmm... maybe i don't understand the whole picture."

 

[trukinlady]

I'll be posting soon when I have more time to reply. Too many things going on at once.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Hy, I do agree with you on many things of the things you said, and to be totally honest, I had a pity party about the pain in my body, recently. Some days I can deal with it better than others. The only way I can even function is with medication......and even that doesn't always work. Right now, the only thing that doesn't hurt is my nose....well eye lids aren't hurting either. I do think a healthy spirit is key. But sometimes, like yesterday, I got up and went back to bed for a couple of more hours until I could deal with it. (I had pushed myself to go to the late movies on Sunday evening and saw my first 3D movie....'The Avengers.') I kept jumping at stuff....loud noises, etc. Really racked myself up. I did push myself to go to ceramics and I really do love doing that. Today, I've pushed myself to do some work in my husband's business and my household. You are correct.....we keep forgetting who we are in Jesus. The p.o.p. keeps telling me my quality of life is over. Hy, everyone needs an Aaron and Hur. I know I do. My guardian angels take 12 hour shifts.....I can be a handful! I know that is hard to believe!!!!!!!! So folks, let's be Aarons and Hurs for each other. We really need to do that, without judging and condemnation......you know, Christians are BAD about judging each other. It's been pointed out to me that I've been acting like my deceased mother....her downside attributes and I don't want to do to others how she occasionally treated me. I mentioned this to my grief counselor and the first thing out of her mouth was I needed to forgive my mom. I have. She really was a great Mom, and I miss her terribly. But I can only change myself.....no one else, and I forgave her and have asked the Lord to help me do it. What was really odd, is that the old Billy Joel song was playing on the radio ...... 'I Love You Just the Way You Are.' Boy, did I ever feel like a doofus!

Changing the subject, I think I asked for Jesus' spoken words on subject, but you did bring up some good Scriptures. But, call me crazy, however, I want to hear the words from Jesus Himself. I call it 'WDJS' instead of 'WWJD.' WDJS is 'What does Jesus say.' If it's important enough for Jesus to say, it's important enough for us to listen and absorb.

It really is good that you're posting once again. I've missed you! How is your 'half way house going?' I know you're busy going about doing God's work, and you stay busy.....like all the time! That's good too, because I know you're helping people, and I admire you for that!

Take care, my brother in Christ!

 

[Saintscruiser]

I hope I'm allowed to post on this board. Not a member of this group but this topic got my interest.

I spent a number of years in a cult. Because of that, I don't think I can ever trust any church again, but that's another story. One good thing that came of it (maybe the only good thing) was that we were taught to study the bible on our own, using the tools available, e.g., concordance, Young's, Strong's, interlinear, and one of my favorites, a Bullinger Companion Bible, among others.

On to the topic at hand. I am of the "once saved, always saved" camp. I believe that Romans 10 9-10 are literal:


No qualifiers, no "unless you do this or do that" or anything. Shall(shalt) is an absolute. No strings attached.

Now as far as Heavenly rewards, well that's a whole 'nother topic.

WELCOME BLUZEMAN!!!!! I'm with Lady T......I'd love to read your testimony. How long have you been out?

Praise God for you being on fire for Him! I'm interested in your last sentence, though. Can you tell us more?

Again, welcome Bluzeman! I live in Mississippi where the 'blues' was born. I presume you are familiar with Robert Johnson? My favorite is Stevie Ray Vaughn.

Be blessed and I'm looking forward to more posts! Shalom!

 

[Southern Gent]

I agree but what do we do with these scriptures?

Gal 5.. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Rom 11 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Rev 22... 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Those three scriptures (and many more) seem to indicate just as adamantly that we can lose the salvation that we have gained through Christ.

We can quote scriptures that say our side is right but we can't really refute the scriptures that state the other side. We can ignore them or we can say .... "hmmm... maybe i don't understand the whole picture."

Galatians 5 is talking about keeping the law. If one keeps the Law, choosing law over grace, then the grace of God through Christ is nullified.

Rev 22:19 likely doesn't exist and is not found in early manuscripts. Erasmus took the verses from the Latin Vulgate. Textus Receptus and or codex1 if it is believed to be most accurate does not contain the last 6 verses and then some. Not a deal breaker but something to consider as a whole. Many texts have it, many don't.

Romans 11--Jews were broken off by unbelief. Can a Christian be a Christian in unbelief?

 

[HyOnLyph]

To Saintscruiser... I do hope that you didn't see my comments as judgmental. It wasn't intended that way. I sympathise with anyone's struggle with health issues. I've struggled with my share but not to the degree you are. And I am far from victorious all the time. I do find that when I ponder (meditate?) on who the new man is... the one Christ has made me... I'm lifted up beyond the condition of the old man. But I regretably live in the realm of the old man quite a bit. I'm getting there but slower than I'd like.

The house is going great. We have 6 women with us right now. All are different with their own structures of beliefs to unlearn (and Truth in Christ to learn.) My wife and I view us all as a family in Christ and try to help them embrace Him.

With regards to "the words of Jesus". I understand. But we can't discount other scripture. We either accept the Bible or we don't. It's pretty hard to pick and choose on the words in red as truth. Since Jesus didn't write any of it, not even his own quotes, if part of scripture is to be questioned then it all has to be questioned. It is either what scripture says it is (for the building up of the body) or it's just a nice profound book that points us toward Christ as best it can. I am so grateful that the law of Grace (in Christ) is written on our hearts and that the Holy Spirit is speaking truth to us constantly. However, the key seems to be... avoiding the filtering of God's Truth through our own fears and mis-beliefs in order to understand what is Truth and what isn't. That's the war of the mind, isn't it? Any truth viewed through the eyes of a belief that is not true, is skewed. It is so wonderful that God has given us an indicator, a dash-board if you will of indicator lights and meters. It is the "Fruit". If we display the fruit of the Spirit, love/joy/peace etc, we are believing the truth at that moment. If we manifest other fruit, (fear, anxiety, anger, dispair, depression) then at that moment, we are believing something other than the Truth of the Spirit. It's up to us to recognize it and seek the face of God to find the truth. It is through relationship with our Father that we are able to identify what is really true. Sometimes that means identifying the lie and then embracing the truth, other times the truth simply over-rides the lie in our hearts. He is so faithful to continually speak truth to us and to work it into us. It is the transformation by the renewing of the mind. Working that which is in our hearts, into our minds so that we can walk in it.

to Southern Gent... Nice to see you. Yeah, I think it's obvious that Gal 5 is talking about the law. It's about a believer choosing to go back to the law. To be encumbered by and justified by the law after being set free from it. Paul was pretty serious about that concept wasn't he. It's interesting that human nature is always to "go back" to the law. There seems to be a false security in rules. Look at society... we are constantly making laws for every little thing that pops up. We think it (rules) will bring security and yet we grow more and more fearful. (I'll refrain from discussing political views on that.) So it appears that Paul is saying, once accepting grace (saved), if you go back to the law you can lose your salvation.

I certainly don't profess to have a clear understanding of how it all works and don't really find it to be an issue among real believers but it is interesting to a degree.