Sound Off: Is taste purely subjective, or...

[Mr.Mann]

Sound off III:
Is taste purely subjective, or do some people not know how to interpret flavors?

Being in the liquid forum as much as I am, the one constant is this phrase "taste is subjective." Is that a cop out? Generally, that phrase comes after a glowing comment or a terrible one--it's a way of not being held accountable for what you say, and I get that for something as fickle as other people's likes, dislikes, appreciations and aversions. But talking taste, purely taste, is that subjective? Sure, some people have actual conditions or illnesses that will make them sensitive to one or more of the 4 (+1) basic tastes, i.e., sweetness, sourness, saltiness, bitterness, or umami. Some have may even have a psychological issue like conditioned taste aversion. I know a young lady that has no sense of smell. For real. But these are generally exceptions, not the rule.

Whether or not someone likes something should be the last statement in how something tastes, but more frequently then not, you get a thumbs up or down FIRST, followed by the oft repeated phrase, "taste is subjective." Maybe likes and dislikes are individual and even fleeting, but is sugar not sweet, is salt not salty, a lemon not sour, kale not bitter, roasted mushrooms not umami? Like them or not, their taste is not subjective! However, when you start putting some of those "tastes" together, then we're interpreting flavor, and that is a different, much harder to play ball game.

So, when it comes to eliquid -- talk about it, try and describe it, get creative with interpreting the flavors. Just saying "Meh, I don't like it! Taste is subjective" is a wasted post.

I am done with the phrase.

What do you think?

Sound off!

 

[gthompson]

When I say "taste is subjective", all I mean is that just because I like it doesn't mean you will, or just because you like it doesn't mean I will, not that it actually tastes differently to us.

I always use a food analogy. In my own family, 3 boys raised eating mostly the same cooking at home all their lives, they still developed some varying tastes. One likes sushi and the other two won't touch it. Another likes Indian food and the other two won't touch it. My wife loves okra and nobody else will eat it. I like liver and no one else will eat it. I suspect liver tastes the same to them as it does to me, I just happen to like it for whatever reason and they don't.

"Taste is subjective" doesn't mean chicken doesn't taste like chicken.

 

[gthompson]

Oh, and I agree with you about reviews shouldn't really be about "liking" or "not liking" a juice (because "taste is subjective" ).

 

[Mr.Mann]

When I say "taste is subjective", all I mean is that just because I like it doesn't mean you will, or just because you like it doesn't mean I will, not that it actually tastes differently to us.

I always use a food analogy. In my own family, 3 boys raised eating mostly the same cooking at home all their lives, they still developed some varying tastes. One likes sushi and the other two won't touch it. Another likes Indian food and the other two won't touch it. My wife loves okra and nobody else will eat it. I like liver and no one else will eat it. I suspect liver tastes the same to them as it does to me, I just happen to like it for whatever reason and they don't.

"Taste is subjective" doesn't mean chicken doesn't taste like chicken.

Only you, GT, only you! Hilarious, but so true.

However, I get what you are saying, but wouldn't you agree with that phrase being also used to substantiate a claim that something doesn't taste the way it does? As in, Boba's taste like tobacco to me, but then again, taste is subjective.

 

[gthompson]

Only you, GT, only you! Hilarious, but so true.

However, I get what you are saying, but wouldn't you agree with that phrase being also used to substantiate a claim that something doesn't taste the way it does? As in, Boba's taste like tobacco to me, but then again, taste is subjective.

I don't actually think that's subjective, but more like, it's supposed to taste like chicken, so my mind tells me it tastes like chicken, but if I've never actually had chicken before, I don't know any better.

 

[gthompson]

And yes I agree the term is often misused here.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I don't actually think that's subjective, but more like, it's supposed to taste like chicken, so my mind tells me it tastes like chicken, but if I've never actually had chicken before, I don't know any better.

Yep, touche. You are in rare form! Well, not so rare, but more like perfect GT form.

 

[skyztheLynnit]

For me.. i think the phrase doesn't mean I don't want to be held accountable for what i say.. rather.. i don't want to be responsible for how YOU interpret the juice.
example: asparagus tastes slimy and smells like donkey vomit to me. You may think it tastes sweet with a crunchy texture and smells like butter.

 

[VaporMizer]

So then it seems like maybe taste is subjective, but flavor is objective? Taste being the perception of flavor, and flavor being what it is.

 

[Mr.Mann]

So then it seems like maybe taste is subjective, but flavor is objective? Taste being the perception of flavor, and flavor being what it is.

From what I've read, taste, in the most basic sense, is the most objective part, as in sour or sweet. Simple. Flavor is the manipulation of different "tastes"--sour+sweet--and that is what is then interpreted. Now, the way something actually tastes is objective, pure and simple. It is what it is.

Whether something "tastes" good or not to an individual is different and should have no bearing on describing how it tastes.

Whether someone understands the flavor is different.

So, people's perception will tell them different things about what is what, but that doesn't mean that basic thing has morphed into something else. Whether a blind man can't see the color of my coat does not make my coat another color. But, talking about that color (from people that can see) will vary greatly from one description to the next--but that doesn't change the color of my coat. That color is not subjective. What I was proposing was that the notion of "taste being subjective" is too often a cop out for not trying to interpret what one experiences in the form of taste. Of course there will be different ways of explaining a liquid, but descriptions and ways of perceiving are not what's in question.

If someone asks how Halo Prime 15 tastes, while it may be difficult to describe without drawing some really strange allusions, going off on a long diatribe about how nasty it is does the reader no good in understanding how it tastes.

I get it, when people are saying "taste is subjective," they very well could be saying "my perception is different than yours." I am mainly making a philosophical distinction between the subjectivity of perception vs. the objectivity of what is being perceived.

 

[llamainmypocket]

Taste is actually used to define subjective so I'm not sure you could separate the two in meaning.

It should be self evident that people do actually perceive the basic flavors in varying degrees without having any illness. There a guy out there who's tongue is insured for millions of dollars and he spends all day tasting ice cream. Do you think you taste as well as he does? If not does that make you Ill?

I'm just kind of shocked. I look at how much salt or sugar people put on things and its enough to make me barf. You actually think they are perceiving the same degree of sweetness and saltines and just prefer that? Are you just assuming they are ill but not establishing how?

 

[Sdh]

I believe taste is subjective. It is a sensory perception that belongs to me. I own it.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Taste is actually used to define subjective so I'm not sure you could separate the two in meaning.

It should be self evident that people do actually perceive the basic flavors in varying degrees without having any illness. There a guy out there who's tongue is insured for millions of dollars and he spends all day tasting ice cream. Do you think you taste as well as he does? If not does that make you Ill?

I'm just kind of shocked. I look at how much salt or sugar people put on things and its enough to make me barf. You actually think they are perceiving the same degree of sweetness and saltines and just prefer that? Are you just assuming they are ill but not establishing how?

I know. McDonalds serves 60 + million customers a day, so I get that part. I recently bought a soda because it had been probably years since I really had one and it was straight up sugar (and a few proprietary flavors. LOL!) When I say taste, I think I should underscore that I am not talking about "taste" as in, I have good taste in music (which I do. haha). I am talking about what it is being tasted. Liking sugar water does not make it not sugar water. Asking someone to tell me how something tastes is asking if that sugar water is all sugar and some sour, all sugar with some acid, or all sugar with some carbonation.

I totally get what you are saying, but in the context of this liquid forum, "taste is subjective" kind of negates the whole purpose of the exchanging of ideas. Ultimately, perception being individual is a given, but trying to best describe what is objective is hard. There are some flavors in liquid that I just can't wrap my brain around, so I'll say I am having a hard time figuring it out; but to throw my hands up and say "It sucks! Taste is subjective so you may like it" does what exactly? Not much.

I also get that I am stepping out on a limb--maybe even a branch--but this is the liquid forum which is supposed to be comprised of discussions about liquids/flavors/performance and such, all I am saying is let's discuss IT.

 

[VaporMizer]

...
I get it, when people are saying "taste is subjective," they very well could be saying "my perception is different than yours." I am mainly making a philosophical distinction between the subjectivity of perception vs. the objectivity of what is being perceived.

But the actual definition of taste is the perception of flavor. The flavor is the objective thing.

Taste/tāst/Noun:The sensation of flavor perceived in the mouth and throat on contact with a substance

Verb: Perceive or experience the flavor of

 

[gthompson]

I think one of his points is, when people review juices, they should try to stick to what it tastes like to them and mostly avoid how good, or bad, it tastes to them (with the standard taste is subjective or ymmv). If someone says a juice tastes like licorice, I know from experience I probably won't like it. If they say "OMG this is the best juice I ever had, try it you'll buy a jug of it" I could waste the price of a jug.

 

[llamainmypocket]

Sensory perception is key to understanding that reality itself is subjective. What you see, hear, touch, taste, and smell happens between your ears and it happens differently for everything.

Take my cats for example, they don't see the TV anything like I do. To them, the TV flickers like it's broken because their eye detects a higher speed of frames than the tv puts out. Take a dog for example, they don't even see the colors. To say anything is actually seeing it correctly makes the assumption that there is a correct way to see it.

Don't even get me started on what cats or dogs taste. There's a reason why your dog can eat poop and its got nothing to do with the perception of flavor.

To off topic?

 

[gthompson]

My dog is the ultimate example of "taste is subjective".

 

[CannedWolf]

Whether or not someone likes something should be the last statement in how something tastes, but more frequently then not, you get a thumbs up or down FIRST, followed by the oft repeated phrase, "taste is subjective." Maybe likes and dislikes are individual and even fleeting, but is sugar not sweet, is salt not salty, a lemon not sour, kale not bitter, roasted mushrooms not umami? Like them or not, their taste is not subjective! However, when you start putting some of those "tastes" together, then we're interpreting flavor, and that is a different, much harder to play ball game.

Nicely put. I wholeheartedly agree.

When I am tasting (whether it be juice or wine or scotch or anything really), it is important to me to call out the flavors I am getting first and foremost - especially in a group setting. How I react to those flavors or the specific combinations of those flavors is mine and mine alone - it doesn't change the taste of any of the flavors.

A better wording of "taste is subjective" is "I don't particularly like this combination of flavors but, you might" (or, better yet, leave it off). When that is expressed at the end rather than the beginning, the reader/listener will have had an opportunity to already create an image in their mind on how it would taste to them and has instantly decided whether it sounds good to them or not.

Me saying that I like something or not adds no value to the review.

Here is an example:
I have been doing a lot of tasting recently and have tasted some coffee based juices. Here is what I wrote on them (note, these are initial impressions before steeping)

Dark Turkish Coffee - Spot on. There is a hint of spice and a bit of cream with a solid coffee. This is one of the best coffee juices I've had. Excited to see how it opens up.

Would any of you take from that comment that I dont like coffee? While there are some coffees that I do like, generally speaking, I don't. However, it was important in the description to explain what I was tasting so anyone reading could make their own call.

Perhaps the use of the word "best" isnt the best word to use - "accurate" is probably a better choice.

Here is another one:

London - very peat heavy. Reminds me of aftertaste of a Islay scotch. I can taste the leaves and get the richness of the overall flavor - bit of smoke/campfire on the back end. looking forward to it opening up and the peat-iness dropping a bit.

To say that I don't like Islay scotches is very much an understatement but, you would never know just how much I loathe heavy peat flavor from reading the above.

It just seems to me that it is more useful to describe the flavor and leave my opinions on those flavors for later...

 

[oxygen thief]

When I was young and living at home my mother, who was a very good cook, would have all of this delicious food on the table but I would only eat a few things. When I was on my own for five years and went home for the holidays it was feast time.
How much does out taste change over time? Right now I can burn out on a juice I love after 30ml.
Taste is more complicated than just subjective. That's my WAG anyway.

edit: Just noticed, two months and I have a year off cigarettes. Sure has gone by fast!

 

[Mr.Mann]

But the actual definition of taste is the perception of flavor. The flavor is the objective thing.

Taste/tāst/Noun:The sensation of flavor perceived in the mouth and throat on contact with a substance

Verb: Perceive or experience the flavor of

Definitions are subjective. That's why there's so many of them per word.

Anyway, I think you are saying what I am saying, I think. Though the semantics of this are VERY tricky, the object is the, uhh, objective thing. Any eliquid being discussed is the object and I am saying though being truly objective about it is quite frankly impossible, trying to be is not.

Does anyone here argue as to whether or not a lemon is sour? Is sugar sweet? I'd go so far as to say that our perception of the 5 basic tastes is not that different, but our likes and dislikes, along with our exposure to said tastes is the difference. If you eat a lemon and I have no idea what you ate, I might ask, "how does it taste?" If you say "it tastes really sweet," or "I think it tastes terrible"--that is what? That is either not a lemon, or not what I was asking about.

Ex1: Member (A) buys a liquid. Member (B) asks how that liquid tastes. Member (A) says "it's gross but you may like it." Did member (B) get the question answered? Some may say yes, but that would only be a technicality in that any response to a question could be construed as an answer.

Ex 2: Member (A) buys a liquid. Member (B) asks how that liquid tastes. Member (A) says "It is semi-sweet, with a chocolate creamy base and a touch of jalapeno like spice. There is a citric like presence--maybe orange?--on the exhale. Member (A) goes onto say, I didn't care for it too much, but that is the best way I can describe it. Did Member (B) get the question answered? I would say yes.