Stainless Steel mesh, Oxide discussion.

[DrMA]

Corrosive is a very unspecific term - what your metallurgist meant was that you need a strong oxidizing agent to create Cr(VI). In contrast, nicotine, PG, and VG are all reducing agents, so the chemical environment of vaping is particularly unfavorable to creating Cr(VI). In fact, any Cr(VI) that may be present on the wick from torching would quickly get reduced to Cr(III) by the eliquid components.

 

[Ill_Rev_J]

Sounds better to me than before. The good and bad thing about this whole vaping phenomenon is how DIY/grassroots it is - encourages innovation and creativity, but possibly at the cost of safety i.e. the average modder (and even hardware/liquid vendor or producer) doesn't have the $ to test all the various combinations BEFORE using or marketing them. I just hope Boden's initial test results (at home) were false positives (due to some other corrupting element, i think Vanadium DrMA mentioned), and the results from the lab hold true. I also hope (and trust) the metallurgist is correct, and that the OSHA standards are, as many such things tend to be, overly protective. Though I'd still like to see further research done as described in my earlier post, since replicability is a cornerstone of the scientific method.

Even if I don't use mesh, it helps because the OCD part of me feels like going to all the sites on YouTube and correcting them on their oxidation procedures! But for now, it looks like there's no reason to yell fire...

 

[Rapture]

yes thats right. So it seems like the e-juice would have the opposite effect as a corrosive oxidizing agent. I looked up nicotine and found out that it is a alkaloid. isnt that the opposite of an acid. as in isnt nicotine anti corrosive.

More research I am finding info on cigarette butts being tested as anti corrosion methods for metals. interesting.

Basically I feel that chromium 6 is only a risk when certain welding is being done with flux and other corrosive oxidizing elements. This isnt just as simple as heating up stainless steel and magically creating chrome 6. But im still OCD about this and find that I am obsessed with this topic and research it everyday. The simple answer is.....there is no answer for 100% certainty. I just ordered a mech mod and some stainless steel rope and im just gonna do it and quit worrying. at least try. maybe i will go get tested for chromium 6 after a month of vaping it and see what happens. Who knows

 

[BJ43]

And then a new wick shows up and SS will be the model T of the vaping world. After years of being a steel man, I would never go back. Could never go back to that awfull flavor heated steel gives off.

 

[DrMA]

@Rapture - in welding, the high heat and oxygen-rich flames have more than enough oxidizing power to create Cr(VI) with no other oxidizing agents required.

Yes nicotine is an alkaloid, which by chemical nature (i.e. substituted amines) are reducing compounds (aka antioxidants), but they are not necessarily basic (many are acid/base neutral, and some are even weak acids). I think you're confusing the concepts of "alkaloid" and "alkaline".

OTT, +1 BJ43. After vaping ceramic wicks, I'm not going back to any form of metal.

 

[Rapture]

@Rapture - in welding, the high heat and oxygen-rich flames have more than enough oxidizing power to create Cr(VI) with no other oxidizing agents required.

Yes nicotine is an alkaloid, which by chemical nature (i.e. substituted amines) are reducing compounds (aka antioxidants), but they are not necessarily basic (many are acid/base neutral, and some are even weak acids). I think you're confusing the concepts of "alkaloid" and "alkaline".

OTT, +1 BJ43. After vaping ceramic wicks, I'm not going back to any form of metal.

so whats your overall opinion on the health risks of ss mesh and rope(not torching the crap out of it with a oxygen torch)......... and are there any health risks involved in ceramics. I would love to try to get some ceramics but i feel like thats a whole new ball game of researching and being paranoid of risks involved in that too. I really do believe that the stainless steel ropes are very sable at the temps we are using in normal e-cig use. I have never seen my wick deteriorate, melt, or bond to its self. Is this a fair assumption? I am not a scientist though lol

 

[SloHand]

I think that we should all read today's report released by Igor Burstyn, PhD and take pause.

Contamination by metals is shown to be at similarly trivial levels that pose no health risk, and the alarmist claims
about such contamination are based on unrealistic assumptions about the molecular form of these elements.

I find it odd that most of us SMOKED for many years and now we are worry warts about what we inhale?!? We are 99% better off than what we were doing. Can we do better? yes we can but don't let the paranoia destroy ya.

 

[Ill_Rev_J]

Yes, I read that report, which summarizes the results of as much research as they could find and compares what we inhale to minimum exposure limits commonly recognized in industry. What we don't know (and what the referenced studies I've read don't make clear) is what type of device is being used (or when they do, usually it's a cig-a-like). We need more studies of inhaled vapor using difference devices, e-liquids, etc. An Odysseus with a .5 ohm coil on a 7.4 V mech mod using torched SS wick is unlikely to be what has been studied thus far. Caution is prudent, though I certainly wouldn't panic just yet.

 

[Rapture]

very nice thanks for sharing. This makes me feel a bit better. but still wish i knew if they were using cartos, disposables, or what ever. I wish they would do a test like this with rba and genesis using all different types of wicks.

I wouldnt say alot of us genesis users are doing what most would say "conventional" way of vaping. thats what makes me nervous. were kinda like pioneers of a new planet of vaping (if you will)

 

[Rapture]

i forgot to add. Today a drilled out my aga t2 stainless steel cap. My god stainless steel is EXTREMELY hard. i dulled a drill bit, cut my finger, ran my drill battery dead, and it took me like a half hour to bore out the existing hole. even the tiny burs left were so strong i couldnt even break them off scraping with a screw driver. This just makes me feel that much better about using it as a wick i guess. and the fact that its used in cooking and medical.

I really believe the only way to get chrome 6 is very high heat and a corrosive agent like welding with flux. or very high heat and abusive treatment like grinding, hammering when forging. oxy cutting with a extreme blasting flame. or the use of a stong corrosive like chromic acid. Usually when stainless steel is cut or scratched it seals its self back up very quick and remains stable. When its cut or welded using a flux the flux is what plays the part in keeping the chromium 6 stable long enough to breathe in.

Im going by what my metallurgist told me. "heat alone isnt enough to release chromium 6, even at melting point"

Ive watched numerous youtube videos of guys forging almost white hot stainless steel with a hammer with no respirators. I asked about 10 people if there is a risk of chromium 6. i got back 2 responses asking me "what is chromium 6" so either these guys are all idiots or we are just being paranoid. but theres nothing wrong with being safe. thats why we all started vaping to enjoy nicotine the safest way we could.

I do avoid ever letting my wick glow orange the best i can. I dont oxodize with a torch just a lighter on the top coil area because that will get oxodized anyways from the coils. plus my mom told me not to worry. i know im 30 and still call my mommy when im worried.

 

[Vaptor]

I never thought it possible but Googled SS and toxicity and found lot of articles that stainless steel can expose you to carcinogenic nickel.

 

[Rapture]

im starting to think carcinogens are unavoidable. i just figure since i stopped smoking i took away 50 carcinogens from my daily intake.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

i forgot to add. Today a drilled out my aga t2 stainless steel cap. My god stainless steel is EXTREMELY hard. i dulled a drill bit, cut my finger, ran my drill battery dead, and it took me like a half hour to bore out the existing hole. even the tiny burs left were so strong i couldnt even break them off scraping with a screw driver. ............EDIT

3 words: Small diamond file.

 

[DrMA]

I never thought it possible but Googled SS and toxicity and found lot of articles that stainless steel can expose you to carcinogenic nickel.

All stainless has Ni, including surgical equipment and food-grade utensils. The potential for Ni toxicity is well studied and considered negligible; whoever says otherwise is peddling pseudo-scientific paranoia.

@Rapture - How to drill stainless: Cobalt drill bit, medium speed, high pressure, lots of drilling oil

 

[Rapture]

3 words: Small diamond file.

i only wish i had one

 

[Rapture]

yeah i didnt have enough money for the drilling oil. my vaping budget is tight. i did manage to get through the cap with a $3.00 drill bit from home depot though. just a little rough in the inside of the cap. now im just looking for a small rubber grommet to pop in there to decrease the size if i ever wanted too. the hole is 3/32. i was thinking of a grommet with a 1/16 or so hole in the center that would fit in there snug. so i could increase/decrease the size when necessary.

 

[learjetz]

I think that we should all read today's report released by Igor Burstyn, PhD and take pause. "Contamination by metals is shown to be at similarly trivial levels that pose no health risk, and the alarmist claims
about such contamination are based on unrealistic assumptions about the molecular form of these elements."

After reading this I am a confused on how the author was able to give this conclusion. The source cited, #25, explains there is reason for concern regarding metals in electronic cigarette(EC) aerosol.

Chromium, nickel and tin nanoparticles were found in EC aerosol. Cobalt chromium and chromium oxide nanoparticles damaged cultured cells [32], [33], and long-term inhalation of nickel hydroxide nanoparticles by mice caused oxidative stress and inflammation in lung and cardiac tissues [34].

I don't think there is reason for alarm but I don't feel confident with a case closed mentality. Especially considering that the cited article to come to this conclusion tested only one brand of cig-a-like cartomizers to arrive about the conclusion of inorganic compounds in EC aerosol.

 

[Rapture]

I'm still waiting for the second batch of lab results to come in. I fear that a sample size that would be conclusive and comprehensive under all the possible variations of alloy and temperature treatments is too large for me to afford. At 200$ american per sample this is getting pricy. What I do know is that the chemical composition of the oxides on the outside of the mesh is primarily composed of CRIV CRV and CRVI.

Understand that I am heating each wick then rolling it in my fingers like you would to tighten it up a bit, this provides enough friction to loosen some of the oxide in powder form into the liquid. Try it, torch a wick then over a piece of clean paper roll it a bit and see what comes off. (Do not inhale any of the powder that comes off, I am wearing a mask for this experiment)
View attachment 175653

Here I took the same piece of mesh and re-torched it, rolled it in my fingers for about 2 seconds and put some distilled water on it, the pics speak for themselves.

View attachment 175652
View attachment 175651

You couldn't pay me enough to vape that liquid.

The temperature to which the mesh is heated is directly proportional to the amount of each oxide that shows up in each sample. I've found no CRVI in samples that I heated in a oven at 600degF for 20 min. That seems to work the best and is the safest bet so far. Samples I heated to glowing red (+1300degF)... I wouldn't give to my enemies.

Another thing I'm testing is after oxidizing the wick, soaking the wick in vinegar for a few days then rinsing in distilled water. This should reduce any CRVI to one of the lower oxide states.

Honestly, I'm done with SS mesh, It's just not worth it and some of the ceramic and glass fiber options are just as good and without a doubt safer.

If anyone has any ideas please post them. I'm actually thinking of getting some aluminum mesh rolling it up and anodizing it. Theoretically it should be almost perfect non conductive mesh.

A.Jay,
Aluminum is only reactive in the presence of a relatively strong acid or base, weak organic acids such as those found in foods generally have little or no effect on aluminum. E liquid is pretty PH neutral so no worries there. Think of all the aluminum beer cans out there. Ever used aluminum foil? Alloys 1200, 3003 and 5005 Aluminum are food safe.

hmmm im not sure if this is conclusive enough for me. how much CRIV are we talking about here. i talked to a metallurgist and was told heat alone would not be enough to create chromium 6. I was also told even at melting point its not created. welding and heating are 2 different things. so i grinding and forging. I personally think just heating it up it remains stable. but abusing it when hot i dont know, like forging

 

[Rapture]

is it possible to get a kanthal wire grade less resistant to heat for use with mesh. which means it will act like a saftey mechanism and break before any temp that would heat the ss mesh enough to be of concern. im mostly referring to hotspot fixing or unwanted dry burns. i know normal vaping is of no concern because were under 1000 degrees and the coils dont glow

 

[Ill_Rev_J]

The thing with mesh is, even the people who are using it "un-oxidized" actually are oxidizing it by heating the coil red- or orange-hot (and I've seen some take it white-hot, which is above 1000 C!). The current passes through the mesh, shorting the coil, until the mesh has been heated sufficiently to yield a layer of oxidation on its surface. You can't use unoxidized SS as a wicking material, because it will be too conductive. So any sort of "fusible" Kanthal would be irrelevant, though I can see your logic in thinking so.

What I'm planning to do (whenever vapemail delivers my genny and 2mm SS rope) is try using silica/ekowool sleeving to electrically insulate the rope from the coil and atty deck. I'm just not sure yet if I should have got 1.5 mm rope for 2mm ekowool, I've read that the AGA-T's have a hole diameter of 3mm (approx.). And I don't really want to mess with drilling SS if i don't have to, as you know it's a real bugger unless you have a good drill press and feed it slowly at low speed, with lube. Cobalt bits work but at these small sizes, tend to break quite easily as the cobalt steel is much more brittle than stainless steel. (That's what I've learned from browsing around some machinist forums, anyways.)