Steam distillation

[Redjah]

I've done several diy NETs, both cold and heat-assisted. I'm generally pleased with the results, but I'm always looking to try something new. So I was wondering if anyone has tried a steam distillation of tobacco. There are plenty of relatively inexpensive kits for extracting essential oils. Would one of these work?

Finally, if it matters, I'm not looking to extract WTAs.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I've done several diy NETs, both cold and heat-assisted. I'm generally pleased with the results, but I'm always looking to try something new. So I was wondering if anyone has tried a steam distillation of tobacco. There are plenty of relatively inexpensive kits for extracting essential oils. Would one of these work?

Finally, if it matters, I'm not looking to extract WTAs.

You could face myriad problems with this and those vendors that say they use steam distillation are generally leaving out a whole bunch of information. First, the steam distillation is going to produce a hydrosol/hydrolat and an "essential oil" of sorts. Do you use the essential oil or the hydrosol? The hydrosol is going to be too weak and unstable to use -- though it will be water soluble. Secondly, you are going to have to go with the oil; that will have to be somehow and in some ratio mixed with ethyl alcohol/ethanol/Everclear to make the oil hydrophillic (miscible in a water base).

How you refine the oil part, and how much you dilute it is where the trick lies. But the bottom line is that you are going to be dealing with an oil -- though the hydrosol may prove beneficial -- and you have to find a way to make sure the oil produced is refined and water miscible. You may want to contact Heatmagic.

 

[sparalis]

I have been foling around with alcohol extraction,and distilling because of the patents I have read,and you don't get essential oil from processed tobacco like pipe,or cigarette,I would think for oil it would have to be fresh.so anyway all I got was hydrosol when using water to distill with,next I tried alcohol no luck in finding the right combination,must use a barrier fluid at the end of the distillation.Please anybody experimenting,share your stories thanks.

 

[Bunnykiller]

I have been doing PGA extractions to get the "goodness" from the tobacco... once the initial steeping is complete, I evaporate off the ethanol, leaving a condensed version of the tobacco goodness in probably the small amount of water that the Everclear had in it to begin with... once the ethanol is pretty much gone, oils form in the concentrate and show up as small "globules". These get filtered out in a secondary filtration with coffie filters. There is some ethanol still left in the concentrate, so Im going to assume that there is "some" oils present in the mix. PGA extracts that have been reduced by only 70% seem to leave a residue in the final ( ready to vape) mixture ( normally 70-90% VG/20nic 30-10% extract concentrate)... a ring of oil forms in the final mix bottle at the surface......

 

[sparalis]

alcohol has been the best way I have tried also,but alot of extra stuff seems to extract also,not thick but like a brown tar forms around the container while evaporating .Straining multiple times to get rid of with cheese cloth and coffee filter.My distillations seem very week,but I read a few patents and they run multiple batches into same batch,into a barrier liquid,but then how to get rid of that much water,can't distill water and vg/or pg can you,I know the boiling points are more thwn 25 degrees apart but won't it ruin the juice?

 

[Bunnykiller]

only way I know of to get rid of water is by pulling a vacuum on it to reduce the boiling point down to room temp, but no telling how much of the tobacco extract will evaporate too along with the water.....

I do have a vacuum pump.... hmmm might give it a try just to see...

 

[Bunnykiller]

I also encounter the oil/tar balls with PGA extracting. I let the extract cool ( put in fridge) and then do a filtering thru coffie filter paper. Seems to remove quite a bit of the oil residue...

 

[sparalis]

thanks people I will figure out a way to kind of simulate what the pros are doing ,Iknow I dont have the expensive equipment they have,but i'm starting to put a little lab together with ebay parts,if we all keep going we can figure this out

 

[papabogart]

thanks people I will figure out a way to kind of simulate what the pros are doing ,Iknow I dont have the expensive equipment they have,but i'm starting to put a little lab together with ebay parts,if we all keep going we can figure this out

only way I know of to get rid of water is by pulling a vacuum on it to reduce the boiling point down to room temp, but no telling how much of the tobacco extract will evaporate too along with the water.....

I do have a vacuum pump.... hmmm might give it a try just to see...

I've been researching this for a while. Although there isn't a lot of specific data concerning tobacco oils, the data available for the evaporation point for some substances is available. For instance: "The energies of activation for cinnamon oil, lemon oil and lavender oil were found to be 45.10, 33.2 and 33.9 kJ/mol, respectively." The activation energy for H2O is 44.6 kJ/mol. So some oils will gass off leaving water and others will remain after the water has been gassed off. It's going to take a lot of experimentation (with very accurate temperature control) to find the temperature for extracting the tobacco essence desired.

This begs the question whether the essence oil of different types of tobacco is unique or is it essentially the same regardless of the type of tobacco used in extraction ( in addition to any possible difference in the essence oil, are the waxes and resins necessary for the individual tobacco burley/virginia/etc. characteristics we desire),

Although I'm not convinced that the waxes and resins aren't necessary for the tobacco flavor we desire, I'm unsure if just the oil (absolute) of different tobaccos are indistinguishable or not. Supposedly A+ using CO2 is able to produce different tobacco flavors with just the oils they extract. Mr Mann hints that there may be some behind the curtain manipulation that could account for this?

For now, I'm going to explore maceration and filtering.

Please keep us posted on your efforts.

 

[sparalis]

I research quite a lot,but I am not a chemint nor scientist so I really don't know what I am looking for,which part or chemical ,here is one link someone with the knowledge could make sense of,Ihope this helps,also if anyone can point me in the direction of what to look for when researching this would help,thankshttp://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=32&ved=0CCgQFjABOB4&url=http%3A%2F%2Flegacy.library.ucsf.edu%2FdocumentStore%2Fu%2Fi%2Fd%2Fuid13c00%2FSuid13c00.pdf&ei=g8kDVP3EN4noggS_3oGwDA&usg=AFQjCNEDiLWsxHwBMQgduKKBBxuHr-9pIw&sig2=EASNr-czVyB5zjDBzqYGMQ

 

[sparalis]

Here is an explanation of how one company extracts their products,http://www.edenbotanicals.com/extraction-methods"]http://www.edenbotanicals.com/extraction-methods[/URL]

 

[papabogart]

I research quite a lot,but I am not a chemint nor scientist so I really don't know what I am looking for,which part or chemical ,here is one link someone with the knowledge could make sense of,Ihope this helps,also if anyone can point me in the direction of what to look for when researching this would help,thankshttp://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=32&ved=0CCgQFjABOB4&url=http%3A%2F%2Flegacy.library.ucsf.edu%2FdocumentStore%2Fu%2Fi%2Fd%2Fuid13c00%2FSuid13c00.pdf&ei=g8kDVP3EN4noggS_3oGwDA&usg=AFQjCNEDiLWsxHwBMQgduKKBBxuHr-9pIw&sig2=EASNr-czVyB5zjDBzqYGMQ

Thanks for posting that link.

 

[Ian444]

I also encounter the oil/tar balls with PGA extracting. I let the extract cool ( put in fridge) and then do a filtering thru coffie filter paper. Seems to remove quite a bit of the oil residue...

alcohol has been the best way I have tried also,but alot of extra stuff seems to extract also,not thick but like a brown tar forms around the container while evaporating .Straining multiple times to get rid of with cheese cloth and coffee filter.

I don't understand why you two are trying to filter the tar/oil out. How do you know it doesn't contain the flavor you are looking for? Maybe it smells really bad, therefore not good? Just curious. I have done hot and cold macerations and have occasionally seen a whitish ring around a container storing extract, even with straight PG as the solvent, and it has dissolved as the mixture steeps. Also when using PG/PGA as a solvent for macerations, I have seen parts of the extract not really mixing in with the main body of extract, and again it soon becomes one with steeping time. I am not a chemist though, these are just observations.

 

[Bunnykiller]

Since I use PGA in my steeping process, it does a rather good job of extracting the flavors and oils and tars?? During the evaporation stage, the alcohol volumes continue to drop leaving what little bit of water that is the original volume of Everclear. As the percentage of water become the majority, the oils that were once in solution with the alcohol become concentrated in the water and are non-miscible with the water thus forming the little balls of goo. I got curious and wiped some of the goo from the side of the evaporator bowl and tasted it.... very bitter and nasty ( hi alkaloid content?? ) it also left my finger stained orange as when I was smoking...
The main reason I do PGA extracting is to have a cleaner, non coil gunking juice. All my extracts using VG as a solvent left me with juices with the clarity and viscosity of Hersheys syrup. The PGA method gives me juices with a cleaner vape, are translucent, and taste pretty good too

But I still wonder just how much "stuff" is being extracted from real tobacco other than the flavor.... are we still getting things that could be an eventual health hazard more so than a synthetic tobacco flavor?

 

[sparalis]

The stuff I am talking about wont even wash off the container or your hand without soap or some other cleaner,i'm pretty sure its the bad stuff not nice oil.fromwhat I have read this may be the plant waxes +other insolubles?

 

[sparalis]

I have 2 ounces of Latakia coming,1 oz of fire cured red burley,will post when done.

 

[sparalis]

I am trying different extraction times with alcohol,but I think vacuum distillation with a solvent,collecting in a barrier liquid is what I wan't to try as soon as I get more equipment off of ebay.

 

[sparalis]

This is an excellent description of the ways to extract plant oils and fragrances !!!Extraction Methods for Plant Oils

 

[Smocian257]

So I've got my PGA's sorted out. I was a bit worried that I'd left them too long , at 24 hours 2 of the 5 bottles still had close to 60ml so I let it go, when I checked again they all had 15-25 ml which I thought was too little (although I began with 150cc of 190 proof so 15 is about right?)

I put them in glass bottles and tossed them in the freezer, not sure yet what I want to do with them , noticeable oil "globules" in a few of them and the substance that formed as the mix dehydrated on the side of the jars appears to be some kind of wax from the look of it, I'm going to clean those out though.

 

[sparalis]

I am doing both alcohol and pg/vg heat extractions very low heat 120-130* approx.it extracts so well i get brown stains on my front teeth,thats why Iwant to figure outa good filtration method or vacuum distillation,then buchner funnel vacuum filtration,anybody with buchner experience please share some info on how it works with extracted tobacco,don't want to buy etup if its no better than coffee filters thanks.