Sub-Ohm'ing with Temperature Control (TC) & Nickel vs not Sub-Ohm'ing with Kanthal and no TC

[Trayce]

I never sub-ohm'd b/c I didn't care for the extra precautions and was happy enough with a regulated mod, kanthal @ 1.7ohms @ ~6w. However slightly charred cotton wicks and burnt juice/dry hits resulted from chain vaping. And part of the precaution of sub-ohm'ing was inhaling super-heated vapor that might carry extra precautions (other elements), which included effects from charred cotton and burnt juice.

Enter the DNA40 chip and Temperature Control (TC). Which only works with nickel wire thus far, which results in sub-ohm resistances. But while sub-ohming without TC might involve super-heated elements, sub-ohm'ing with TC guarantees the temp of the coil will not burn the wick (set appropriately), nor the juice. Even when chain vaping. And that seems the healthiest choice of all, providing you are of the mind that believes nickel is safe at normal vaping temperatures.

In my mind this makes sub-ohm'ing with TC (qualified) potentially safer than any other kind of vaping, healthwise, all else being equal. Including using kanthal at 1.0+ ohms without TC, where we regularly get dry hits, charred wicks, and burnt juice.

Anyone else agree, or am I looking at this wrong?

I am looking forward to TC for kanthal... it would seem the best of all worlds.

 

[CasketWeaver]

I believe you're looking at it the way it was intended to be looked at.

However the reason that "sub-ohming" is supposed to be safer with TC is in fact, for the reasons you stated above - burning wicks produces other chemicals outside of the regular substances that were meant to be inhaled during a vape session. The wire you use for temp control however is a different story. The reason that the "TC ONLY" wire is so low in resistance is because that's what the material is naturally. Nickel wire and titanium wire have low-resistant properties naturally which is how I understood it (there are actually 2 known wires used for temp control and one of them is nickel - Ni200 and the other is titanium - Ti01). Both are good wires - but if mistreated, both can be potentially dangerous.

Does that mean you shouldn't use them? No, use them at your own risk. Just like handling e-liquids, batteries, mods, etc. Everything you do, you do at your own risk. When I say "mistreat" your wires - I mean using them as they weren't meant to be used. IE - firing Ni200 / Ti01 wire on a mechanical mod. Not ONLY is it bad for you to heat them beyond a certain temperature, but it's also bad on the battery as well.

 

[Trayce]

Thanks CasketWeaver. Yes, nickel and titanium have low resistances, so we're sort of 'forced' to sub-ohm to use TC... at least this first generation of TC. I don't want to start a riot here about nickel, but don't feel I know enough to know for sure when it actually starts off-gassing. At the curie temp of 600F when the magnetic properties change, or maybe before to some degree? (rhetoric) Personally I would rather use kanthal with TC, and hopefully that will be available in the near future. In the meantime I ordered Ni201 vs 200, for the higher temp specs. But for all I know, 201 has other things that make it less desirable? Hope not!

 

[CasketWeaver]

Well - as stated on another post and also in a video - if operating temp control in the proper fashion - running anything too hot (400F and higher) you'll more than likely incinerate your wicks before you ever feel the effects of "leeching" Ni200 or Ti01 wire into your vapor. As the combustion temperature of cotton and rayon (if you use it) is just over 400F. I guess if you want to test that - be my guest but again... if the wire is mistreated, it can surely cause problems. Running anything beyond a certain temperature cannot be good for anything we use in vaping (Ni200, Ti01, KA1, or N60 / 70 / 80). The only other problem I can possibly fathom is whether or not you have a natural allergy to nickel / nickel based alloys. The only suggestion I can think to determine an allergy to nickel is to get your hands on some, and see if your skin produces a contact reaction. If so, then it's best to NOT use nickel / nickel alloys for vaping. As far as Ni201 - I have no idea. Appeared as it was a different alloy altogether.

Photo 1 - Nickel Build 8-wraps - 2mm ID - Tugboat

Photo 2 - IPV-3 Li Settings - 50J is overkill IMO, but NOTE the temp (350F) which has been lowered to 325.

 

[Trayce]

All great points and good advice. Thanks for reminding me about the possible nickel allergy too.

Those are some nice looking coils there, my friend. Did you happen to use a coil master type tool, or is that just your extreme skill at work??

 

[CasketWeaver]

All great points and good advice. Thanks for reminding me about the possible nickel allergy too.

Those are some nice looking coils there, my friend. Did you happen to use a coil master type tool, or is that just your extreme skill at work??

You're very welcome too. Just a good wrap on a 2mm screwdriver. Although the initial wraps start off ugly, when I'm done, I pinch the coils between my finger and the lip on the screwdriver. I've seen nickel wrapped on machine screws / bolts and come out pretty good, but because I don't have anything like that lying around, I just wrap manually.

 

[Trayce]

Those are some mad skills. Received my IPV4S yesterday and am getting used to it. Nickel has not yet arrived so vaping in normal wattage mode. You mentioned above (for Temp or Joules mode) 50J was a little overkill [for the setup there] IYO... I don't know even know what a Joule is (even after reading Wiki it's not easy peasy for me to get) much less how to gauge that parameter. So will read up more before nickel arrives, but my usual way is to start at the very bottom (lowest settings) and go slow upwards until I hit a sweet spot. In the meantime seeing vets like you post pics like that and listening to your comments gives me frames of reference, so thanks.

 

[CasketWeaver]

Those are some mad skills. Received my IPV4S yesterday and am getting used to it. Nickel has not yet arrived so vaping in normal wattage mode. You mentioned above (for Temp or Joules mode) 50J was a little overkill [for the setup there] IYO... I don't know even know what a Joule is (even after reading Wiki it's not easy peasy for me to get) much less how to gauge that parameter. So will read up more before nickel arrives, but my usual way is to start at the very bottom (lowest settings) and go slow upwards until I hit a sweet spot. In the meantime seeing vets like you post pics like that and listening to your comments gives me frames of reference, so thanks.

Joules is Pioneer4U's reference to wattage - that's all. I've hit it at 50J on the IPV3-Li @ 50J and on the DNA200 at 50W and they both feel the same. It might just be me, but yeah that's what I found about it all. As far as my opinion - 50-100J (ONLY in Ti01 Mode - Titanium) is overkill for most builds. I randomly record videos and in all of my videos I make sure to inform people that "Just because... doesn't mean you should." and I stand by it. Just because you have a device that has a 1.21 giga-watt cap doesn't mean you should fire a coil at that power. 20-40W is plenty of power for most purposes. It's when you drive a coil with 100-200W is when problems start popping up. First, the vaporization point of e-liquid doesn't require a whole lot of power. Second, driving too much power through any wire is bad for the wire, hard on the chip, and hard on the batteries. Usually 3.7V - 4.2V is fine for most setups. If you need excessive power (100-200W) to get your coils to even contemplate warming up, then build higher. The sag that your battery does shouldn't kill your batteries with one pull. I like warm vapes too, but I don't build to the point where my batteries drain in 5 minutes. Even with my horking ... 20AWG wire built to .18 Ohms - I can get a satisfying warm vape without maxing out the devices potential.

 

[Trayce]

Hey thanks for the quick watts/joules relationship... close enough for me too! That saves me a lot of trouble reading! And I agree 100% with everything you went on to say. I certainly didn't need the 120w of the IPV4S. But am hoping since the firmware is upgradable when TC is made for kanthal this mod will be able to be upgraded to accommodate it. Of course it's more likely the manuf will want to sell new units to everyone, but at least I have a chance. But I like vaping at the lowest possible power to deliver a good vape, and for me with kanthal it's always been under 20w. (My LemoDrop right now is a 1.37ohm and 12.5w and it's blowing great clouds with great taste.)

BTW I am so glad you mentioned Ti wire... what are the advantages you personally see to using it over nickel? Do you have a nickel allergy, or just like Ti? I thought maybe to bypass the nickel controversy I might go that route... then read something in passing about Ti too, so...Like you say, any wire can be abused but just wondered if there is less controversy over Ti or the same amount.

 

[CasketWeaver]

Hey thanks for the quick watts/joules relationship... close enough for me too! That saves me a lot of trouble reading! And I agree 100% with everything you went on to say. I certainly didn't need the 120w of the IPV4S. But am hoping since the firmware is upgradable when TC is made for kanthal this mod will be able to be upgraded to accommodate it. Of course it's more likely the manuf will want to sell new units to everyone, but at least I have a chance. But I like vaping at the lowest possible power to deliver a good vape, and for me with kanthal it's always been under 20w. (My LemoDrop right now is a 1.37ohm and 12.5w and it's blowing great clouds with great taste.)

BTW I am so glad you mentioned Ti wire... what are the advantages you personally see to using it over nickel? Do you have a nickel allergy, or just like Ti? I thought maybe to bypass the nickel controversy I might go that route... then read something in passing about Ti too, so...Like you say, any wire can be abused but just wondered if there is less controversy over Ti or the same amount.

As far as Ti01 wire is concerned - toxicity is again, based on the consumer. It can be a lot more toxic if mishandled / allowed to get too hot and oxidize. As far as whether or not I like it - I don't have much to say about it besides the following:

Pros:
It has a slightly higher resistance than nickel
It's also a little less prone to chopping the leads because it is a bit harder
It allows the P4U devices that have a Ti mode to operate at 100J
It's a lot more durable under heat (still wouldn't fire it until it's red hot)
Allows someone with a nickel allergy to use Temp Control

Cons:
It's very brittle so too much bending may cause the wire to snap
Very springy and sometimes difficult to work with
Only 1 known vendor (Spider Silk)
Needs to be wiped down thoroughly before use - comes with some kind of grease to prevent corrosion
Needs to be monitored a little bit more than nickel - discoloration or signs of a powdery build-up on the wire means it needs to be replaced

So the rest is up to the user. My experience with it is minor - but I don't use it because it produced a heavy metallic taste when I used it. It could have been for the grease I may have missed on it or the fact that my taste buds picked up on it right away. As far as negative controversy - there is little controversy over Ti wire vs Nickel and for the reasons mentioned. Then again, temp control as a whole is under quite a bit of fire. Just because of the whole "This isn't tested to be safe..." nonsense. As far as me having a nickel allergy - I haven't noticed any skin reactions, breathing difficulties, etc and I used both types of nickel based wires. Ni200 - pure nickel and Nichrome 80, nickel / chromium alloy. As far as me vaping at the lowest possible power - it depends on the build and wire. Sometimes I can get my IPV3 to fire my nichrome builds (.15 - .25 Ohms) to fire at a mere 2.85V (which is sometimes at or below 45W.

 

[Trayce]

Thanks for that invaluable information. Again you just saved me a ton of reading. Based on that I believe I will bypass trying Ti.

As for TC, I can't see how anyone could possibly fault the premise except for one caveat: should it fail to work per its specs, actually firing higher or going out all together (chip failing to regulate temp as indicated) so that you are vaping hotter than you think. If this were the case, I'd expect the person would know it real quick by wick burn or warmer vapor. And as you have said in the past, the wick should burn long before the wire breaks down, so... if TC doesn't seem to be working (which is probably not too likely), then switch out to watts mode and kanthal and get a new mod. But conceptually TC seems to be going exactly in the right direction imo, though I'd like to see the direction adjusted some to TC with kanthal, 1+ ohm builds, and power leaning towards what is safe, like 40w. Sort of like we don't need cars that go 400mph when the speed limit is up to 65 or 70. A mod that automatically senses the wire and adjusts TC to not fire higher than is safe for that wire would seem to be a good deal. The DNA200 chip OTOH with super-sub-ohm builds and firing at major high wattage.... I don't see how that direction is the best one to go in for manufacturers or vapors since a great experience can be had at the opposite end of the spectrum which is arguably safer. JMO. And I would guess we will eventually get there after the exploration at the higher ends of the scale.

Disclaimer: not judging or criticizing anyone who ran out for a DNA200 card or is waiting on a mod. I get people like trying things. And the industry thinks people are of a mind that "more is better" and that's often true. But sometimes less is more and hits the sweet spot that's the best of all worlds... great vape quality and higher safety. I guess time will tell.

 

[CasketWeaver]

Thanks for that invaluable information. Again you just saved me a ton of reading. Based on that I believe I will bypass trying Ti.

As for TC, I can't see how anyone could possibly fault the premise except for one caveat: should it fail to work per its specs, actually firing higher or going out all together (chip failing to regulate temp as indicated) so that you are vaping hotter than you think. If this were the case, I'd expect the person would know it real quick by wick burn or warmer vapor. And as you have said in the past, the wick should burn long before the wire breaks down, so... if TC doesn't seem to be working (which is probably not too likely), then switch out to watts mode and kanthal and get a new mod. But conceptually TC seems to be going exactly in the right direction imo, though I'd like to see the direction adjusted some to TC with kanthal, 1+ ohm builds, and power leaning towards what is safe, like 40w. Sort of like we don't need cars that go 400mph when the speed limit is up to 65 or 70. A mod that automatically senses the wire and adjusts TC to not fire higher than is safe for that wire would seem to be a good deal. The DNA200 chip OTOH with super-sub-ohm builds and firing at major high wattage.... I don't see how that direction is the best one to go in for manufacturers or vapors since a great experience can be had at the opposite end of the spectrum which is arguably safer. JMO. And I would guess we will eventually get there after the exploration at the higher ends of the scale.

Disclaimer: not judging or criticizing anyone who ran out for a DNA200 card or is waiting on a mod. I get people like trying things. And the industry thinks people are of a mind that "more is better" and that's often true. But sometimes less is more and hits the sweet spot that's the best of all worlds... great vape quality and higher safety. I guess time will tell.

The reason that the higher powers are being produced now is from what I hear - Evolv (the company manufacturing the DNA chips) have acknowledged the fact that some people feel the need to toss more power at their TC coils, which makes sense to some. Because someone believes that 40W / 40J of power feels anemic and lacking. Does that mean hitting the coil with 200W / 200J in temp mode is a good idea? In my opinion, no it's not. As we all know that nickel and titanium can have drastic consequences when heated to ridiculous levels. Can a device with a temp control chip fire on standard wire (kanthal and nichrome)? Absolutely. I've accidently fired some of my nichrome builds on temp control for not paying any attention. Should we? I don't know if there's an issue with doing it or whether or not it will damage the controller itself. But what I do know is that it's not recommended. And as you stated, you'll more than likely feel the wick incinerate before you ever feel the nickel / titanium fumes become toxic.

 

[CasketWeaver]

Here's the photo after a few days of heavy use on my Ni200 build - the dark wick center is from firing too high of temp (350F) for prolonged periods of time:

If the temp were higher, I'm pretty sure the wick would have combusted. The darker marks on the wire is from constant dripping and minor gunk buildup, but the overall result is minor compared to some of the other coils I've built and used with "coil killer" juices. Have I had to change a coil because of gunking yet? No. The resistance has had minimal change as well, which is a good sign.

 

[Trayce]

Very enlightening. Especially about the nichrome/kanthal working in TC mode, (accidentally discovered and not recommended). And yeah, 40w isn't enough when having to fire sub-ohm, and esp super-sub-ohm, but I guess that was the point. Why go in the super sub-ohm direction which requires more power when normal sub-ohm to 1+ ohms can hit great with less? (rhetorical once again) I can see exploring all boundaries of a new industry/device and I guess that's what's happening and is natural and in general a good thing b/c sometimes unexpected advantages arise out of exploration that at first might seem unwise or unnecessary. Anyway, we'll see where it leads.

Meanwhile your nickel builds are looking pretty darn good there. I am still using the coil that came on my LemoDrop though I re-wicked it last night. But I noticed the resistances do change. Sometimes it says 1.5, sometimes 1.37... I thought maybe it's the mod... my Vamo always read the same resistance... of course those were coils I built and this one isn't. I guess it's time to rebuild it since by your post is sounds like resistance changing may be a sign of wire wear?

 

[CasketWeaver]

Changes in resistance are attributes of multiple things - one being wire wear, the others being build up, screws loosening over time, and wire clippings left behind near the build area.

As far as 40W being enough to fire TC coils - it's plenty. It's when you start working with nichrome and kanthal is where it becomes an issue. TC wire will have enough electricity and heat to vaporize your juice - so in all reality, more power doesn't mean better vape quality.

 

[BobC]

Just a note: personal taste aside, 350F is pretty low vis-a-vis wick burning, if that is happening, you are not getting a good reading on your device/atty.
The wick can withstand temperatures up to about 480-500 and should not burn, but it takes some watts to get there
If you`re experiencing wick burn @350F, something is not set right on your device/atty

 

[Hitcat44]

To clarify Comments made about Ti in general and the use thereof in TC Vaping:

Pros:
It has a slightly higher resistance than nickel
MUCH Higher- using 26 gauge of both w/2.6mm I.D. Single Coil shooting for .22 ohm would take 28/27 Wraps of Ni200 and only 6/5 Wraps of Ti

It's also a little less prone to chopping the leads because it is a bit harder
MUCH less prone to crimping/chopping.

It allows the P4U devices that have a Ti mode to operate at 100J
Wouldn't know about that as TC on an SX Mini M and never had to exceed 25J to get maximum efficiency out of any Ti TC build or RTA/RDA.

It's a lot more durable under heat (still wouldn't fire it until it's red hot)
It is definitely more durable and much more "lasting" but not sure what you mean by Not Firing till Red-Hot unless you mean don't Dry-Fire till Red then I concur.

Allows someone with a nickel allergy to use Temp Control
Quite True.

Cons:
It's very brittle so too much bending may cause the wire to snap.
NEVER had or experienced that Issue with bending/coiling.

Very springy and sometimes difficult to work with
Can be a tad if not annealed or partially annealed. If either of those, not an Issue at all IMO or from my expeience. All the Ti I have bought or read of from other Ti Users are one of those.

Only 1 known vendor (Spider Silk)
Not True.... Unkammen, Vape Mesh. a few others as well.

Needs to be wiped down thoroughly before use - comes with some kind of grease to prevent corrosion
True. Wipe or pull it through cloth with Isopropyl 4-5 times and Good to Go. Some Users cut many sections at one time then run them through an Ultrasonic Cleaner. I always wipe ALL Wire before Coiling including Kanthall anyways so No Biggie.

Needs to be monitored a little bit more than nickel - discoloration or signs of a powdery build-up on the wire means it needs to be replaced
Don't Dry-Fire it (if you do, use LOW wattage/joules and pulse only) and no worries. I always inspect at re-wicking and have yet to have any Issues with that what so ever. I don't Pre-Heat or Dry-Fire with no negative ramifications.

The difference in taste is the "Lack of Taste" contributed by the Ti Wire to the Vapor. You are tasting only the Juice (depending on the Wick Material that may/may not be adding to) and not the Wire.

Nothing at all against Ni200 (I use OCC Ni200 Coils in an STM sometimes). Just saw some things that needed further Commentary & Clarification regarding Vaping/Building with Ti.
Couple of highly Enlightening, Informative, and Factual Threads regarding Ti and its usage in TC Devices:
Titanium wire, vaping and safety | E-Cigarette Forum
&
SXmini M Class (TEMP CONTROL) | E-Cigarette Forum (last 100 pages or so).

 

[CasketWeaver]

Just a note: personal taste aside, 350F is pretty low vis-a-vis wick burning, if that is happening, you are not getting a good reading on your device/atty.
The wick can withstand temperatures up to about 480-500 and should not burn, but it takes some watts to get there
If you`re experiencing wick burn @350F, something is not set right on your device/atty

Firing my cotton dry at the initial setpoint of 350F is close to the burning point of cotton itself so discoloration will occur and it did occur after prolonged period of firing it constantly - granted I was getting the dry coil warning but was vaping the wick until it had absolutely no juice on it. The ignition point of cotton is 210C (410F).

As for Hitcat - I haven't seen the other vendors listed pretty much anywhere with the exception of the Spider-Silk Ti wire. And when I said dry fired - I meant until glowing hot. I was informed doing so brings out some bad stuff in Ti wire as a whole. And yes, I noticed the resistance of Ti wire being pretty high compared to Ni200 wire. But I put "slightly" as I still noticed it was really low.

 

[Trayce]

I actually came upon the first link Hitcat44 kindly provided above on Ti a few days back and read dozens of pages of it, but I can't say I read the entire thread. It's very time consuming (as everyone here knows) reading threads that are 300+ pages, separating chaff from grain. It's just a little early in the industry right now to be able to have all this info down pat and concise and factual in an uncontested, scientific way, all pretty and short in a sticky. And fact is, if you never heard of driving and someone was explaining the virtues, it would sound really great until they got to the part about how if you don't watch what you're doing you might kill yourself, or hit someone else and kill them. But we all drive knowing it's basically safe as long as you aren't reckless.

All to say... there is a lot of scary info out there that would make anyone looking into all this think twice, (e.g. Ti poisoning, nickel poisoning, unwanted elements from burned wicks or juice, etc)... but then if it doesn't apply to normal vaping temps and using common sense, it's like saying a car can kill you. Technically it's true, but it isn't a factor under normal circumstances. And certainly not worth avoiding having a car over.

EDIT hours later: Well after reading more for the last several hours, I have personally come to the conclusion that minus dry burning or overheating, Ti Grade 1 is probably quite safe. And since it eliminates nickel allergy concerns (even though some claim most ppl with allergies aren't affected by vaping nickel wire anyway)... and lasts longer than nickel wire, I think I will try it.

Putting ohm target aside since I don't really care (but prefer to stay higher in ohms rather than lower but can adjust that with wraps and tool mm), which gauge is easier to work with? 24g?

 

[Hitcat44]

Get 26 ga for Single Coils and 28 for Double. Especially if you are going to shoot for higher Ohms. Just be aware that most TC Devices won't fire if the Resistance is higher than a certain ohm (usually around 0.3-0.35 or so). That's why most Ti TC Vapers are typically around the 0.2 Range. Don't be put off by that. I normally RDA Vape around the 0.45 range but on Ti/TC prefer 0.20-0.23 which is a well performing 6/5 Wrap on a @ 2.5mm Mandrel I.D. If you want closer to the 0.3 range, add a Loop or two or if Build space is limited, go to a 3mm Mandrel.
Use the 28 gauge if you are building a Double Coil so you don't have to go two few Wraps. Need a decent Heating Area or you won't get max efficiency due to too small of a Coil Area.

Good Source for G-1 Ti is on Easy. Unkammen is the Sellers ID/Name
Pure Titanium Wire 100% Guarantee Specific by UnkamenSupplies
Very Tried and Proven. Cut the Section for a Coil, wipe it through an Isopropyl soaked Cloth a few times to get off the Production Residue, and Coil away. After that, absolutely no need to Dry-Pulse. It is partially annealed so not too springy which is another reason not to have to self-anneal with heat. Not had any issues myself. I use a 3/32" (2.38mm) Bit to Wrap so when the Coil springs outward a tad naturally, the I.D. grows to about 2.5-2.6mm and I use 2.55 on Steam Engine when figuring and plotting accordingly.
Blue to slight Gold color is fine. Light Grey to White is a No-Go. Again, I don't Dry-Pulse or self-Annual and have NEVER had any issues with discoloration/Oxidation.

The Ti Boogie-Man does exist but is rather small and can be easily put down with a bit of Research and due Diligence in application with a smattering of Common Sense. Pretty much the same with any and all Aspects & Facets of the Vape-Life.

Enjoy!