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TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

Discussion in 'Temperature Control' started by TheBloke, May 28, 2015.

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  1. TheBloke

    TheBloke Ultra Member Verified Member

    Mar 30, 2015
    Brighton, UK
    There's now a number of mods out, or coming out, that will allow easy vaping with wires other than Ni200.

    People are already using Titanium, and some are trying Stainless Steel, with normal DNA40/Yihi devices. But using a standard TC mod with these wires does not give the best experience because the mod expects the wire to be Ni200 and predicts its temperature on that basis. Temperature offsets have to be used in the case of Titanium, and Stainless Steel will burn dry cotton at any temperature setting.

    But now new mods are coming out which are able to support TC wire other than Ni200:
    • Joyetech are in the process of releasing their EVIC-VT mod which has a specific Titanium mode, in addition to standard Ni200 mode.
    • Other mods are going even further: Dicodes in Germany, and Infinite in China have both released chips that allow user customisation of the Temperature Coefficient of Resistance.
      • This allows one to achieve accurate TC on any wire whose resistance increases linearly and significantly as it heats.
      • Such as Titanium, Stainless Steel, and a new wire being popularised by Dicodes called Resistherm NiFe30.
    • Dicodes have released a new tube-mod chip used in two of their own mods, and one from a third party.
    • Infinite have released a new DNA 40 clone chip/board, which goes to 60W and includes a feature called 'Nickel Purity'
      • This feature is poorly named: while it was apparently intended for use with poor quality nickel, it in fact does far more than that - it allows vaping with many other wires as well.
      • I own a mod with Nickel Purity and am using it to test vaping with Titanium and Stainless Steel, and soon also Resistherm NiFe30
      • This board is being used in:
        • Infinite's own 40W, 50W, 60W Vapor Flask clones (FastTech link.)
        • Geeco's new 60W Zero clone (thread on this forum.)
        • Other new 60W Zero clones (FastTech link - any of the 60W clones in the dropdown.)
        • New VaporShark rDNA 40 clones @ 40, 50, 60W (FastTech link - not the V2s)
        • And quite likely many more to follow

    I've created this thread with the following aims:
    • To explain the principles of using non-Ni200 wires with TC mods
    • To give my findings on Infinite's new Nickel Purity feature, which I have in my new Infinite 50W VF (VaporFlask clone)
    • As a central place to discuss coefficient of resistance modification, in whichever mod it's found
    • To generally discuss the use of non-Ni200 wires for TC with modified coefficients:

    I have been testing modifications of the Temperature Coefficient of Resistance on my Infinite 50W flask and will post details in the following posts. I have tested both Titanium and Stainless Steel, with good results.

    Today I also ordered some of the new Resistherm NiFe30 wire (at the eye-watering cost of €13/10m!) and I will be testing this as soon as it arrives.
    • Like Like x 37
  2. TheBloke

    TheBloke Ultra Member Verified Member

    Mar 30, 2015
    Brighton, UK
    How does TC work and what is the Temperature Coefficient of Resistance?

    Temperature Control works by monitoring changes of resistance in the coil and using this to estimate temperature changes. It works because resistance increases linearly and predictably with temperature, although the amount that it increases varies greatly between wires.

    TC is possible only with wire that has a reasonably high Temperature Coefficient of Resistance (TCR). The Coefficient is a numerical value that indicates how much resistance will rise for a given temperature increase relative to its starting resistance. When the coefficient is high resistance will increase a lot as temperature increases. When it is low, resistance rises a smaller or negligible amount.

    Ni200 was chosen by Evolv as the first TC wire because it has one of the highest coefficients amongst common metals/wires. Kanthal has an extremely low coefficient - its resistance barely rises at all even with hundreds of degrees of heating. (For its intended purpose, this is a benefit; I think it may even have been engineered specially to achieve this.)

    The TCR is relative to the starting resistance, meaning that the higher the starting resistance of the coil, the greater rate of increase in resistance with temperature. So a 0.10Ω coil heated hundreds of degrees will only increase in resistance by a few 0.1's, whereas a 1.0Ω coil heated the same amount will increase by multiple ohms.

    The TCR of pure Nickel is approximately 0.006. This means that for every °C hotter a Ni200 wire gets, its resistance rises by (0.006 * <starting resistance>)Ω. So for a coil that starts at 1.0Ω, every degree °C of heating will increase its resistance by 0.006Ω (0.006 *1). For a coil that starts at 0.1Ω, each degree will increase resistance by 0.0006Ω (0.006 * 0.1).

    • A coil is at 0.10Ω at room temperature (20°C / 68°F)
      • You vape and the chip sees its resistance is now 0.22Ω
        • So it knows its resistance rose by 0.12Ω
      • Then it calculates using the coefficient of 0.006 that a resistance rise of 0.12Ω equals a temperature rise of 200°C (392° F)
        • And therefore the coil temperature is now 220°C (428°F)
        • (0.22Ω - 0.10Ω) / (0.006 * 0.1Ω) = 200°C (392°F)
        • + 20°C (68°F) [starting temp] = 220°C (428°F) [coil temp]
    • A coil is at 0.5Ω at room temperature (20°C / 68°F)
      • During vaping the resistance rises to 1.136Ω
      • This is a temperature rise of 212°C / 413°F, from the following calculation:
        • (1.136Ω - 0.50Ω) / (0.006 * 0.5Ω) = 212°C (413°F)
        • + 20°C (68°F) [starting temp] = 232°C (450°F) [coil temp]
    • Of course it is performing these calculations many times a second, constantly monitoring the temperature and adjusting the power it sends accordingly.

    DNA 40 and Yihi TC devices have Nickel's (or Ni200's) Coefficient hardcoded, so they only work accurately with Ni200 wire.

    TC vaping with other wire is thus inaccurate by default, unless the mod allows the coefficient to be adjusted to suit the wire.

    What wires besides Ni200 could we use?

    At this time, there are three that I know about and I've tested two:
    • Titanium (Grade 1)
    • Stainless Steel (SS317L)
    • Dicodes' Resistherm NiFe30


    Titanium has a coefficient of 0.0035, just over half compared to Nickel's of 0.006.

    It is already being used for TC vapes (existing ECF thread: Titanium wire, vaping and safety.) It's possible to do this on normal TC mods but to do so requires a temperature offset of around 90°F - ie. one would set 340° when one wanted 430°.

    With a corrected coefficient this will no longer be necessary - the real desired temperature can be set.

    The advantages of Titanium over Ni200 are various, including enabling the use of micro/contact coils (not spaced) and higher resistance ranges. It's also stronger and won't break easily like Ni200 often does. Downsides with currently available wire is that it's springy as hell until (lightly) torched/pulsed.

    Another potential advantage is safety; some metallurgists are identifying Titanium as being particularly safe, perhaps on a par or even more so than Kanthal. But understanding of vaping wire safety is still very much in its infancy.

    Much more info is in the Titanium thread linked above.​

    Stainless Steel

    Stainless Steel has a coefficient of 0.00094, less than one-sixth of Nickel's.

    This means that SS can not be properly used for TC without adjusting the coefficient - its resistance increases with temperature too little for normal mods, that are expecting Ni200, to use effectively.

    Some people have vaped SS on normal TC mods, and it does somewhat reduce dry hits, but it will still burn cotton. To use it effectively, a coefficient adjustment is necessary.

    Once the coefficient is adjusted, Stainless Steel works well - no burnt cotton. However my testing thus far has still required a temperature offset, albeit not as much as people have had to do with Titanium. When using the Infinite Nickel Purity feature, I have set an offset of around 50°F when using SS.

    The advantages of Stainless Steel versus Ni200 are the same as for Titanium - micro/contact coils, higher resistance ranges, stronger. The advantages of SS versus Titanium is that it's much easier to work with - malleable, easy to coil. It is also readily available, and cheap. Crazy Wire/The Mesh Company in the UK sell SS 317L under the brand TMC.

    The safety aspects of it are unknown at this point in time, though theoretically it should be safe at TC type temperatures (and perhaps safer than Ni200, though don't quote me on that!)​

    Dicodes' Resistherm NiFe30 (IsabellenHütte)

    This is a new wire that Dicodes are popularising along with their new mods. Its coefficient is 0.0032, very similar to Titanium.

    They are calling it "Dicodes' Resistherm.." as if they invented it, but they did not. It was created by IsabellenHütte - their info page on it is here: RESISTHERM® - Isabellenhütte Heusler, and here the datasheet.

    In one of their manuals Dicodes state that it is easier to work with than Ni200 (what isn't?) I don't know how it will compare to SS and Titanium. Its resistance at 29G is 5.5Ω/metre, making it less than Titanium and Stainless Steel but 4x greater than Ni200.

    The data sheet lists it as usable up to 600°C (1112°F) so it certainly has a far higher ceiling than Ni200.

    One potential downside is that it currently only exists in one size - 0.28mm/29G - and that may be the thickest that is available any time soon. The manufacturer states the wire goes from 0.02mm to 0.25mm/30G, so Dicodes have already made it available slightly thicker than the manufacturer normally offers. Maybe 32+G would become available in future, but it seems unlikely that 28 and below will, at least unless/until it becomes very successful for vaping.

    I have ordered some for testing (€13/10m !! :( )​

    Infinite's implementation of TCR modification : Nickel Purity

    What is Nickel Purity?

    Nickel Purity is a setting from 10-100 that Infinite have added to their new DNA 40 clone chip. It can be found in a number of mods, including VaporFlask clones, Zero clones and VaporShark clones. Some of these mods are 60W only, and others are available in 40, 50 and 60W variants, which are identical besides the wattage. The 60W variants are by far the best value as they are almost the same price as the lower watages.

    The stated purpose of Nickel Purity is to allow users who have lower quality Ni200 wire - such as is commonly found in China - to better use TC. However, it has far more use besides that - and thus is rather poorly/inadequately named.

    It works by by directly modifying the Temperature Coefficient of Resistance (TCR) value that the mod uses to estimate temperature increases from resistance increases in the coil wire. If nickel wire is less pure, it will have a lower coefficient - the resistance will rise less with each degree of temperature increase. The TCR for less pure Ni200 will be lower than 0.006, perhaps 0.005 or whatever.

    In fact, the feature is much more useful than its name suggests. In most of the world we do not suffer from poor Ni200. But as Infinite implemented Nickel Purity as a scale across a wide range of TCR values, it has much more interesting and exciting uses: it allows us to use different wire altogether, including Titanium Grade 1, Stainless Steel, and the new Resistherm wire.

    My testing has indicated that this works well, enabling better and easier use of Titanium without temperature offsets, and making the use of Stainless Steel properly usable for TC for the first time.

    How does Nickel Purity work?

    My testing indicates that it works very well, and very logically.

    It would appear to quite simply be a Temperature Coefficient of Resistance (TCR) scale.

    The scale of Nickel Purity is 10 - 100. The default on the new Infinite mods is 70.

    I have found that a value of 10 is roughly equivalent to a TCR value of 0.001 and a value of 100 is 0.01.
    • Ni200's coefficient of approx. 0.006 would suggest a value of 60.
    • Titanium's coefficient of 0.0035 would suggest 35.
    • And Stainless Steel, whose coefficient is around 0.00094, would use a value of 10.
    I have tested all these wires and various values, and found that they mostly work as expected:

    • Titanium on a setting of 35 vapes well, and much better than it does on a normal TC mod (DNA 40/Yihi).
      • However I have found a slightly better vape from increasing the value, up to around 42.
    • Stainless Steel on a setting of 10 also vapes well, and becomes properly usable for TC for the first time
      • But a temperature offset is still required - around 40-50°F I am finding.
      • I still need to do more thorough testing, including with other attys
    • With Ni200, a value of 60 would seem appropriate from the scale, but in practice I am finding the default of 70 works a bit better (no doubt that's why it's the default)

    I still need to do more testing to understand these results fully. It did seem from my first testing that the scale was fairly linear with coefficient, but in practice I am finding that I want to set the value a little higher than suggested by that correlation.

    I am in the process of doing further testing and will update as I find more.

    But the great news is that it definitely works, making vaping on Ti much easier and more convenient, and enabling proper TC use of Stainless Steel for the first time.

    How to test/tune Nickel Purity settings?

    The new Infinite chip mods have an additional excellent feature that made it very easy to test for this. Unlike most/all standard TC mods, the Infinite chip displays live resistance readings during the vape.

    So say you put on a TC coil that measures 0.10Ω, and then you start vaping. Most TC mods will continue to show the static value of 0.10Ω, hiding the real (increasing) resistance value of the coil.

    In contrast, the Infinite shows the live updating resistance. It also shows, as usual, the live updating temperature (or rather its estimate of it.)

    By comparing these values together - what is the resistance, and what does it think the temperature is? - it's possible to work out what coefficient value it's using for the temperature calculation.

    The only downside is the annoying "Temperature Protection" message it often flashes, which obscures some of the readings. But this can be worked around by setting a temperature too high, so the message is not flashed or flashed more rarely.

    I will give more details on my testing, and data, soon.
    • Like Like x 52
  3. refuzeandrezizt

    refuzeandrezizt Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 6, 2015
    Western, KY
    Very interesting, and thank you for taking the time to put this together. I will be following this one for sure.
    • Like Like x 4
  4. TheotherSteveS

    TheotherSteveS Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 14, 2015
    Birmingham, England
    Hi Tom,

    great thread idea!!
    • Like Like x 2
  5. TheBloke

    TheBloke Ultra Member Verified Member

    Mar 30, 2015
    Brighton, UK
    Example of TC with Stainless Steel 317L:

    The Coil - Micro coil is possible (this one has been in use a day or two):


    Nickel Purity set to 10, closest value of SS coefficient of 0.00094


    Before vaping - notice nice high resistance from SS, 0.44, and also that some temp offset is still required (380° down from 420-450 I would normally use on Magma)


    During the vape - working as expected: notice live resistance display as coil heats up



    • Like Like x 12
  6. TheBloke

    TheBloke Ultra Member Verified Member

    Mar 30, 2015
    Brighton, UK
    Dicodes mods - TCR Adjustment

    Earlier I described modifying the Temperature Coefficient of Resistance (TCR) with Infinite's Nickel Purity. There's a second set of mods that allow this modification, and they do it in a way clearly labelled to be for different wires.

    Dicodes have a chip that can presently be found in three mods:
    These are all tube mods with a single button. They appear to be some of the most sophisticated mods around. As well as Temp Control with TCR Adjustment, they also feature power curve modes (similar to Yihi SX Mini I guess), allow the user to control how far the mod will drain batteries (2.5V - 3.0V), change the wattage up/down steps, change screen brightness, adjust standby/shutdown time, change how many clicks is required for on/off/lock, and just about anything else you can imagine adjusting.

    Real power users' mods - albeit in a tube form factor with only one button!

    Link to the manual of the Dicodes 2380, explaining modification of TCR and showing general features. All three of the above mods appear to function identically, differing only in power output.

    With regard to their TCR adjustments: this is in the form of a scale from 100 - 650, and directly relates to the coefficient value.

    The adjustment is stated as being: value = coefficient * 10e5 K.

    Which gives the 100 - 650 scale as being coefficient values of 0.001 (100) to 0.0065 (650) (the coefficient value is multiplied by 10 five times in order to get the mod scale value.)

    This seems very similar to that of Infinite's Nickel Purity, albeit capped at 0.0065 instead of 0.10. My guess is that coefficients much below 0.001 are not usable with current generation mods - they probably require too great an accuracy of resistance reading.

    Dicodes suggest these defaults for various wires:
    • 105 = Stainless Steel
    • 320 = Dicodes wire (Resistherm NiFe30)
    • 350 = Titanium
    • 480 = Tungsten
    • 620 = Nickel, approximately

    These mostly match our expectations - although it's interesting to see Nickel at 620 not 600, albeit 'approximate'.

    It's also very interesting to see mention of Tungsten - could this also be a wire suitable for vaping?
    • Like Like x 9
  7. DejayRezme

    DejayRezme Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 22, 2014
    Nice thread and and gathering of information! I have yet to read it all but just a short note: I wrote to Yihi and they told me they are also looking into supporting different wires.
    • Like Like x 3
  8. dr g

    dr g Moved On ECF Veteran

    Mar 12, 2012
    Lol!!! "Nickel purity" ... a farce if i ever heard one.
  9. druckle

    druckle Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    That should be something that could easily done with a firmware update for the SX350 M class. Do it tomorrow Yihi! :)
    • Like Like x 5
  10. DejayRezme

    DejayRezme Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 22, 2014
    Just some temperature coefficients of electrical resistance I've found. Not sure which one is correct. I figure a good thermometer wrapped in kapton high temp tape could be used to accurately determine it. Someone should go and earn a million karma by doing some tests :D I also propose to use % (1/100) to make the numbers easier to read and understand.

    Nickel Temperature coefficient of electrical resistance
    Resistivity, Conductivity and Temperature Coefficients for some Common Materials

    Electrical resistivity and conductivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Temperature coefficient of resistance : Physics Of Conductors And Insulators - Electronics Textbook

    Titanium Temperature coefficient of electrical resistance:

    Titanium - online catalogue source - supplier of research materials in small quantities - Goodfellow

    Titanium definition of Titanium in the Free Online Encyclopedia
    • Like Like x 1
  11. druckle

    druckle Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    They're likely all correct for the specific sample they were testing. Since chemistry will vary slightly for every specific batch of metal produced the coefficient of electrical resistance will also vary. "Adjust to taste" some really fancy temperature measurements over a range of temperatures and THEN "adjust to taste" :lol:
    • Like Like x 2
  12. TheBloke

    TheBloke Ultra Member Verified Member

    Mar 30, 2015
    Brighton, UK
    Awesome to hear @DejayRezme . Yes I think a lot of vendors are going to jump on the bandwagon here, and they definitely need to provide some useful updates via USB FW. Not least, disabling that gravity sensor :) (I think I heard they're doing that in the next update)

    What do you mean? The poor naming of the feature?

    Good info. There's a lot of varying figures given for Ni200 - 0.006 is commonly quoted, but then Dicodes seem to be using a figure of 0.0062 (620 on their scale). Titanium is usually referenced as 0.0035 everywhere I've seen it. One thing with Titanium is it might vary by grade, and we're only wanting to use Titanium Grade 1.

    I have done tests already, checking different Nickel Purity settings against the correlation between resistance of the coil and its (estimated) tempearture. That's what brought me to thinking that NP is simply a scale from 0.001 to 0.01 (10 - 100).

    I used some online Temperature Coefficient of Resistance calculators to work out what figure it must be using for the coefficient if it thought that resistance 0.XX was equal to a temperature of ZZZ degrees.

    Unfortunately I don't yet have a decent temperature monitoring setup. I have both an IR thermometer "gun", which is accurate +/- 1.5°C up to 500°C, but I can't yet get a decent, consistent read on a coil. Ditto I have a probe sensor accurate to 1° up to 300, but I don't have the temperature tape you mentioned.

    I will be trying more on that soon.

    And tonight I will post the details and results of my Nickel Purity testing/tuning soon. As mentioned in my first posts, I seemed to get a quick an easy fix on the scale, that it matched directly and easily to the coefficient. But then in practice I found I wanted to set the value a little higher. I will do more testing on that tonight and might make a quick video so everyone can see what happens at various settings with various coils.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. TheBloke

    TheBloke Ultra Member Verified Member

    Mar 30, 2015
    Brighton, UK
    PS I've edited my first posts to add more info and better lay it out, so you might want to glance over them again if you already read them before 10 minutes ago!
    • Like Like x 1
  14. DejayRezme

    DejayRezme Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 22, 2014
    I have to agree that the name "Nickel purity" is a bit weird. I also doubt that nickel purity itself has a big effect. In any case you should use 99.5% pure nickel wire period. But the feature itself is great. Might make it easier to understand than "temperature coefficient of resistivity in % per degree Kelvin" :D

    Here is a link the the spreadsheet I used to extract the TCR for Nifethal 70. It has a strange "dent" at 200°C. Might be a measuring error or just might not be very linear.
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Vooper

    Vooper Senior Member

    Apr 16, 2015
    He means Evolv didn't make it so he has to mock it.

    Also dear lord do you actually vape that atty with that much cotton in it? o_O
    • Like Like x 4
  16. TheBloke

    TheBloke Ultra Member Verified Member

    Mar 30, 2015
    Brighton, UK
    Yeah Nickel Purity is a really stupid name for it. If it was called Coefficient Scale or Temperature Wire Scale or really anything else, it would be much understandable (and much more obviously awesome.) But yes I agree that the full name might scare people :)

    When we first heard the feature I was really hoping it would work for other wires, but I also thought it quite possible that it would not - I thought maybe the scale would just adjust the coefficient a small amount, around the value that "impure" nickel might reach. Say, adjusting it from 0.004 to 0.006. The fact that it seems to go down to 0.001 is awesome. But I think they have hindered the publicity of the feature by making everyone think it's only for poor quality Ni200 - which affects very few people in US/Europe.

    I did wonder if Infinite didn't even realise how useful it could be - maybe they really think it's only for purity of nickel. But then if that's the case, why allow it to go so low; there's no nickel in existence with a purity so low as to have a coefficient of 0.001, or even 0.003 for that matter. So I think they must have realised, but then gave it a bad name.

    Either way, it's an amazing feature to find in a $50 mod. Or any mod for that matter. I for one will do my best to publicise it as much as possible :)

    And that's great work on the Nifethal 70 coefficient. Yeah as you said in the Titanium thread, that could definitely be an interesting wire for vaping as well. I wonder why Dicodes went for Resistherm instead. I shall have to see what it's like when I get it.

    I guess the trouble with these 'exotic' wires is that there's no easy way to get hold of any. I'm pretty sure I can't ring up Kanthal and ask them for 20m of Nifethal :) More like it has to be 20 tons.. Group buy, anyone? :)

    It's Rayon :) And yes I did overdo it a bit, I'm still getting used to Rayon. The Rayon guys told me "use more than for cotton" and I did! Perhaps a bit too much more :) But it vapes great actually, just I could use less and then it would be easier to judge how much juice I have in there / how much more I can add :)
    • Like Like x 3
  17. Eric Auer

    Eric Auer Super Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 14, 2014
    Very cool info, Thank You.

    • Like Like x 1
  18. nelsonm64

    nelsonm64 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 27, 2013
    Kelowna, B.C.
    @ TheBloke... what Great and informative thread, kudos man, much appreciated.

    your thoughts on nickel purity is interesting. I had set my NP value on my zero clone to 65 for the nickel OCC coils and it worked great! I had initially set it to 90 bit got instant "temp protect" message, trial and error landed me at 65, and that's spot on to what you're talking about :)
    • Like Like x 4
  19. TheBloke

    TheBloke Ultra Member Verified Member

    Mar 30, 2015
    Brighton, UK

    Yeah that is something to consider, maybe a downside, with Nickel Purity: for normal TC vaping it could make the process a little more complicated. Someone using standard (good quality) Ni200 probably just wants to vape away with a hardcoded default. To be fair, the default value of 70 seemed to work for me - your setting of 65 is probably not much of a noticeable difference to that, or at least it's within the margin of error for most attys/builds/the technology itself. I fiddled about between 60 and 80 and ultimately settled back on 70 where it was at the start.

    So it does add another variable to consider. TC is already somewhat inaccurate and vague, with different recommended/preferred temperatures for different devices and users. Those can now be modified via NP as well as temperature offsets, which is good or bad depending on how you look at it.

    But for vaping different wires than Ni200, it's awesome.

    Was your NP at a default of 70 like in my Infinite flask? One YouTube review, I think it was VapnFagan, found his Geeco Zero clone defaulted to 10 which naturally broke TC completely. That was a pre-release mod so hopefully they fixed them all from that point onwards.
    • Like Like x 2
  20. DejayRezme

    DejayRezme Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 22, 2014
    It's probably just availability in Europe. It sounds like it's basically the same thing. Still have to convince myself to order the resitherm wire.

    And I think you can just contact Kanthal and order a sample. Oh btw I just noticed that Kanthal is based in sweden. How ironic so it can't well be the availability lol.

    BTW does the fasttech / infinite flask have the kangxin chip? Those should say "Hello / KX something" on waking. I have a 40 watt kangxin vaporflask.
    • Like Like x 3
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