TC Builds and Troubleshooting

[HolmanGT]

Anyone able to achieve 25+ watts on a rda @ 400-420 degrees without reaching temp control nearly instantly?

This is the one thing I've yet been able to do. I've tried larger ID coils ... thicker and thinner strips of cotton ... different wrap counts ... etc etc. Seems almost impossible to vape at those temperatures while using higher watts, ESPECIALLY if you are chain vaping.

I use high VG juices btw.

tc1,

Look up the boiling point for VG it will surprise you if you don't already know. I believe it is around 570 degrees "F" and until it boils there is nothing to cool the coil. Now that is the black and white of it. There are other things that lower the boiling point water, alcohol ... and several other things I imagine.

I know with any of my Attys the higher the VG ratio the more trouble I have with wicking and higher temperatures.

 

[tc1]

I never even thought of that. That would also partially explain why flavors can be perceived to be better. Most flavors are suspended in PG, so in theory ... we might be vaporizing our flavorings quicker than the VG base itself. (It would also explain why you can't dry burn the cotton dry at lower temps, as the VG is not reaching the temp needed to vaporize off the wick)


The only thing that would somewhat confuse me is the fact that nicotine's boiling point is 477 degrees. Would this suggest that we are in fact receiving little to no nicotine at lower temperatures?

Kinda interesting actually ...

EDIT: Actually, when it comes to vaporization, we look at flash point and/or evaporation. Nevermind. lol
Still ... never thought about VG and it's higher boiling point. Essentially the VG cools the coil but then retains the heat of the coils until it can be evaporated. ... making cooling the coils a slower process.

That also explain why tanks can maintain temperature better, as it is constantly pulling fresh (and cool) VG to the coils. Where as with a RDA, you have to either drip after every pull, or let it sit for a few for the VG to cool along with the coil.

So in reality, chain vapers might be better off using a PG (50/50 or higher) juice in order to maintain lower temps.

 

[HolmanGT]

I never even thought of that. That would also partially explain why flavors can be perceived to be better. Most flavors are suspended in PG, so in theory ... we might be vaporizing our flavorings quicker than the VG base itself. (It would also explain why you can't dry burn the cotton dry at lower temps, as the VG is not reaching the temp needed to vaporize off the wick)


The only thing that would somewhat confuse me is the fact that nicotine's boiling point is 477 degrees. Would this suggest that we are in fact receiving little to no nicotine at lower temperatures?

Kinda interesting actually ...

EDIT: Actually, when it comes to vaporization, we look at flash point and/or evaporation. Nevermind. lol
Still ... never thought about VG and it's higher boiling point.

TC,

I'll go you one better I didn't even know that Nicotine was a liquid. I do know that when I spike my ejuice with some juice that has a higher VG ration the flavor is diminished. I usually do that when I want to take the "Zimg" out of a juice that has sharp edges or just don't care for the taste. The extra VG will take it to a point that I don't have to flush it. Call me cheap.

Tc, I don't understand how any of the vaping physics works. I just recently spent a lot of time search for what happens to the VG if my atty never reaches the boiling point for VG. Now you have further complicated my questionings by add "What happens to the Nicotine.

The only thing that seems obvious to me is somehow it is all getting used up (some how) or the last ml in your tank would be a lethal combination of VG and Nicotine.

I sure hope someone jumps in hear and bails us out. I have thought and searched what you and I are discussing and have found little to no information or maybe I found the information and it was so far over my head that I didn't know I found the answer.

 

[tc1]

I just put this to the test and sure enough ... a 50/50 mix maintains temp control much better.

Not sure why I never thought of this but now it CLICKS. This is actually invaluable information for people just learning temp control IMHO.
Just goes to show that there is more science behind temp control than simply the temperature and resistance of your coil. You have to take into account the evaporation/flash/boiling points of the ingredients in your eliquid.

 

[tc1]

TC,

I'll go you one better I didn't even know that Nicotine was a liquid. I do know that when I spike my ejuice with some juice that has a higher VG ration the flavor is diminished. I usually do that when I want to take the "Zimg" out of a juice that has sharp edges or just don't care for the taste. The extra VG will take it to a point that I don't have to flush it. Call me cheap.

Tc, I don't understand how any of the vaping physics works. I just recently spent a lot of time search for what happens to the VG if my atty never reaches the boiling point for VG. Now you have further complicated my questionings by add "What happens to the Nicotine.

The only thing that seems obvious to me is somehow it is all getting used up (some how) or the last ml in your tank would be a lethal combination of VG and Nicotine.

I sure hope someone jumps in hear and bails us out. I have thought and searched what you and I are discussing and have found little to no information or maybe I found the information and it was so far over my head that I didn't know I found the answer.

Flash point of nicotine is 207 degrees F. So obviously we ARE vaporizing some nicotine. I'm just interested in knowing what percentage based on our temps. I'd imagine that we wouldn't be inhaling 100% of the nicotine unless we reach the boiling point (But I'm no chemist so I can't say that with full certainty).

I guess my comments was leaning more towards the idea that with temp control, we may have been unknowingly weening ourselves off of nicotine even further.

Which is kinda cool ... lol

EDIT: And no, I don't think the nicotine is/will separate in your tank, leaving a massive dose of nic in your tanks. It is being carried to your wick along with everything else. The magic happens once it HITS the coils.

Based on what I'm seeing it kinda looks like this.

Ejuice hits coil ... PG begins to vaporize along with flavors, VERY shortly after the nicotine begins to vaporize , a little later the VG begins to evaporate. The PG and flavoring begin boiling rather shortly while the Nicotine and VG take much hotter temps to boil. You are still vaporizing all the ingredients and inhaling them. The problem here is with the VG, which won't boil and FULLY evaporate off the wick at lower temps. So what happens? It sits on the wick and retains the heat of the coils ... making the process of cooling the coil and wick take longer (Because you have to wait until the coil AND VG cool down).

On a tank this is less problematic because as juice is evaporated and more juice gets carried from the wick to the coil, it is cooling both the coil and left over "hot" VG.

On a dripper however this becomes more problematic because unless you re-drip, the coil and "hot" VG will have to slowly dissipate the heat naturally.

From a temp control stand point ... VG essentially becomes an enemy. Simply because it doesn't fully evaporate as quickly as everything else. And since it's not evaporating as quickly, it just sits on the wick being heated to the current temperature of the coil. So unless you are supplying a constant flow of cooler liquid (like tanks) to combat the temps, you have to deal with the retained heat of the left over VG along with the coil itself.

 

[HolmanGT]

I just put this to the test and sure enough ... a 50/50 mix maintains temp control much better.

Not sure why I never thought of this but now it CLICKS. This is actually invaluable information for people just learning temp control IMHO.
Just goes to show that there is more science behind temp control than simply the temperature and resistance of your coil. You have to take into account the evaporation/flash/boiling points of the ingredients in your eliquid.

Glad you tested it or other may thing you and I are going off the deep end.

Actually I tested the same thing to an even greater extreme the other day. I bought a bottle of "Faze" e-juice at the local gas station the other day just to see what it was like. It was 70/30 PG/VG (I normally use 50/50) and I could hardly get my temp up to 400 and to do that I had to take some pretty soft pulls a hard pull I was lucky to hit 380-390.

No there is nothing simple about any of this or there would be a gazillion answers all over the internet.

 

[jazzvaper]

[Snipped]

I guess my comments was leaning more towards the idea that with temp control, we may have been unknowingly weening ourselves off of nicotine even further.

Which is kinda cool ... lol

The "physics of vaping", the theory, which I believe are knowable and known, interest me far less than the practical application of TC: namely, the practical application of the "technology", literally the 'how to'. [****]

What I know for sure from personal experience is that vaping MAX VG requires very different temp & wattage settings than PG. ( I try not to vape anything with more than 30% PG.)

I can, though very rarely, comfortably vape a 70/30 juice at 380-390. Vaping MAX VG only begins at 400, though usually requires a temp of 430 and above.

**** In another thread someone referred to us as "smug temperature control dauphin(s). I plead guilty as charged.







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[HolmanGT]

The "physics of vaping", the theory, which I believe are knowable and known, interest me far less than the practical application of TC: namely, the practical application of the "technology", literally the 'how to'. [****]

What I know for sure from personal experience is that vaping MAX VG requires very different temp & wattage settings than PG. ( I try not to vape anything with more than 30% PG.)

I can, though very rarely, comfortably vape a 70/30 juice at 380-390. Vaping MAX VG only begins at 400, though usually requires a temp of 430 and above.

**** In another thread someone referred to us as "smug temperature control dauphin(s). I plead guilty as charged.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jazz,

I agree with everything you said with the exception that I would really like to know how the "vapor generation works" it just leave me bewildered how all those different compounds get vaporize reasonably equally (or is it part vapor and atomization that accounts for certain compounds not being left behind). Please don't answer that last part I doubt I would be able to understand it and it sounds like something that would take a class in Thermal Dynamics 101. .

 

[jazzvaper]

A good start is Dimitri's interview of Dr. Farsaliinos on YouTube...


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[HolmanGT]

A good start is Dimitri's interview of Dr. Farsaliinos on YouTube...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think I watched that vid but not sure I'll give it a go if you think it will help.

 

[HolmanGT]

A good start is Dimitri's interview of Dr. Farsaliinos on YouTube...


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Jazz,

I just searched YouTube - no luck. Do you have a link the vid you are talking about?

 

[jazzvaper]

It was PBusardo who interviewed: http://youtu.be/t6vr9yJNd_8

 

[HolmanGT]

It was PBusardo who interviewed: http://youtu.be/t6vr9yJNd_8

Thanks Jazz

 

[HDMontana]

10 wraps of 28 ga should be more like 0.15. are you sure those numbers are correct. You might want to check with "Steam Engine.com".

So an update. Played with this build a little more since I got my gold springs today. The gold springs are smooth in the middle with a rougher, flat surface on each end. Before installing one, I rechecked the ohms with my meter. Still said .23. I decided to make sure coil leg screws were tight. After snugging them up slightly, I rechecked the ohms. Lo and behold, it read .16. This is about where steam engine says it should be. Installed gold screw and it stayed at .16. Just a heads up to the New TP users, such as myself, to check all variables. Also to how much more diligent you must be with these nickel builds, especially when first starting out. Thought I would post this and maybe help someone out.

HD

 

[jazzvaper]

After snugging them up slightly, I rechecked the ohms. Lo and behold, it read .16. This is about where steam engine says it should be. Installed gold screw and it stayed at .16. Just a heads up to the New TP users, such as myself, to check all variables...

HD

Indeed, as maligned as ohm readers tend to be they are a good way to ballpark the expected DNA reading.

Tip: After removing the atty from the reader another tightening is wise.

Tip2: If you get a ridiculously high reading on the reader (say 0.40 and above) remove and tighten. Can't say how many times the second (or third) tightening has brought the resistance into the expected range. This is where bad ohm readers shine. (Not!)

 

[HDMontana]

Indeed, as maligned as ohm readers tend to be they are a good way to ballpark the expected DNA reading.

Tip: After removing the atty from the reader another tightening is wise.

Tip2: If you get a ridiculously high reading on the reader (say 0.40 and above) remove and tighten. Can't say how many times the second (or third) tightening has brought the resistance into the expected range. This is where bad ohm readers shine. (Not!)

Thanks for the tips. I did take it off the meter and screw it back on a couple of time. Every time it read .16 ohms.

HD