Teens Love Vaping Flavors, and It’s a Regulatory Nightmare

Status
Not open for further replies.

Marc411

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 17, 2014
4,737
10,918
Windy City
"Traditional cigarette smoking in America has dropped to historic lows, and it looks like electronic cigarettes could be helping. As “vaping” grows in popularity, studies have shown that the habit encourages adult smokers to quit the older, nastier version.

But there’s a big problem—teenagers. And they’re making the entire e-cigarette phenomenon a regulatory nightmare."

E-Cigs are Giving Regulators a Headache
 
  • Informative
Reactions: stols001

Kent C

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 12, 2009
26,547
60,050
NW Ohio US
Vaping is Not a Gateway to Smoking - Vaping360

It’s been a tradition among anti-vaping researchers to try to prove a gateway from vaping to smoking. It’s seems like a magnet for every researcher lacking either pride or good sense, or both. And as we know, the list of tobacco control zealots limited in those areas is long, deep and continuous.

But it never gets old. The “gateway theory” is an anti-vaping touchstone. Or a cobblestone. Or something. Anyway, they really like trying to do it — and as we’ve seen many before, ...
Experts: Teen Vaping Gateway Study Is Meaningless - Vaping360
...they can’t prove anything.

This is such a hot topic, Clive Bates wrote
How not to be duped by gateway effect claims

...a blog post about the common pitfalls encountered by excited researchers writing about gateways, and how journalists can spot them — because no self-respecting gateway proponent forgets to issue a frightening press release.

Now we have a new gateway effort, this one a “meta review,” which combines the data from multiple previous studies to (supposedly) draw more reliable conclusions. It’s in the journal Pediatrics, which has published more than its share of gateway speculation.

The authors make up a who’s who of terrible vaping researchers, including Jessica Barrington-Trimis and Jennifer Unger of the University of Southern California — who’ve been around the block with gateways before — and Samir Soneji of Dartmouth. The full list is too long to print. Everyone wanted in on this.

The criteria they used to choose the studies for their review were these: “longitudinal studies reporting odds ratios for cigarette smoking initiation associated with ever use of e-cigarettes or past 30-day cigarette smoking associated with past 30-day e-cigarette use.” Wait a minute, that a lot of association…right?

...

In other words, an association doesn’t necessarily mean one thing causes the other. The authors do their best to make the association sound like cause and effect, but all they can do is huff and puff about it. “e-Cigarette use was associated with greater risk for subsequent cigarette smoking initiation and past 30-day cigarette smoking,” they write. But as Prof. McNeill said, it’s just as likely that the study participants are the sort of kids likely to try anything.

Last year, writing about Barrington-Trimis’s first trip through the gateway, Dr. Michael Siegel concluded that “as vaping has become more popular among youth, it has displaced cigarette smoking and contributed towards the de-normalization of cigarette smoking.” And so far, that’s what real world numbers suggest.
 

Kent C

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 12, 2009
26,547
60,050
NW Ohio US
The Politics of Victimhood

A certain political faction uses victim identity to further their political or financial goals.

If one disagrees with the policies of a black candidate, you're a racist.
If one disagrees with the policies of a woman candidate, you're a sexist.
If one disagrees with the policies of a LGBTQAI candidate, you're homophobic.

The more universal "victims" are kids/teens/children - because of their supposed innocence. And with kids, another faction - puritans - enters into the game. Kids are the basis of the fake "gateway" arguments. But the goal of the arguments are to take away adult rights. And...

If one disagrees with their arguments, you are a child abuser.
 

sofarsogood

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Oct 12, 2014
5,553
14,167
The flavors and kids thing is a fake issue. Try this thought experiment:

Set up a Juul with liquid that has a good flavor but little or no visible vapor. Set up another Juul with no flavoring but normal visible vapor. Then let a kid who vapes try both as ask which he prefers. I hypothesize that most of the time a kid will prefer the unflavored with normal visible vapor because--it's the clouds bro'.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,314
1
83,835
So-Cal
Hypothetical Question:

Say All Flavoring in e-Liquids was Banned tomorrow with the Exception of Tobacco, Menthol, Some Fruit Flavor, Some Dessert Flavor, and some Random Flavor.

What would be the Actual Drop in Underage e-Cigarette Use?

Common Sense says that it would Not be 100%. Because unfortunately, many Teens do what the Other Teens are doing to "Fit In" and or to be "Cool".

And it Wouldn't be 0%. Because I'm sure there would be some that wouldn't Start or Continue if it just Didn't Taste Good.

So with all the Power, Money and Glory of the FDA and the CDC and the NIH, where is the Quantified Data Predictions of just How Many Teens wouldn't use e-Cigarettes if some on the Hill got their wish and Flavors were Banned?

It would Just Seem that if someone is Willing to Wack an Entire Industry that 7 ~ 10% of ALL Adults in America use, in the name of Saving the Children, that someone should be able to Tell Me how many Children are Really going to be Saved.
 

Kent C

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 12, 2009
26,547
60,050
NW Ohio US
Say All Flavoring in e-Liquids was Banned tomorrow with the Exception of Tobacco, Menthol, Some Fruit Flavor, Some Dessert Flavor, and some Random Flavor.

That still is a lot of flavors, unless you mean only one of the last three. Even then one could get say 'cherry (fruit) ice' (menthol), cherry tobacco, chocolate (desert) cherry, chocolate tobacco ice, mocha coffee (random), coffee tobacco (JG Blend Ahlusion) etc. lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: stols001

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,314
1
83,835
So-Cal
That still is a lot of flavors, unless you mean only one of the last three. Even then one could get say 'cherry (fruit) ice' (menthol), cherry tobacco, chocolate (desert) cherry, chocolate tobacco ice, mocha coffee (random), coffee tobacco (JG Blend Ahlusion) etc. lol

OK... Say ALL Flavors were Banned. Effective at 12:00 AM PST 4-30-2018. It still Doesn't Change the Fundamental Question.

How Many Children are going to be Saved?
 
Last edited:

Opinionated

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 19, 2015
11,168
59,365
55
My Mountain
'Alison's male friend' should learn to DIY.

While there may be a learning curve to DIY (or even simply refilling via OTC eliquids), the payback potential in $avings is enormous.

They s houldnt have used Allison's Beau as any type of example anyway..

First, he's an adult..

Second, sure he's out of cash for eliquid and is "withdrawing" from nicotine..

But what he's not doing is rushing out to buy a pack of cigarettes..

I don't feel like he needs the government to save him from his choices. My goodness they are old enough to fight on the front lines of a war at that age.. they arent children.

The whole article is ludicrous
 

SupplyDaddy

I'm considered a Mad Scientist in some circles!
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 21, 2012
3,359
5,002
61
San Antonio, Texas
OK... Say ALL Flavors were Banned. Effective at 12:00 AM PST 4-30-2018. It still Doesn't Change the Fundamental Question.

How Many Children are going to be Saved?
None.

Because that is not what this "ban" is really about.

And my 17 yo daughter will still be vaping candy watermelon, peppermint and strawberry mixes, because I can always get flavors to mix.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

Kent C

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 12, 2009
26,547
60,050
NW Ohio US
OK... Say ALL Flavors were Banned.

Well, because that would include Menthol - that's racist.

How Many Children are going to be Saved?

None - ie agree with Supply Daddy. More "experimental children" (see links from my first post above) will be 'saved', the more flavors that are available, which is part of the 'experimenting'.

If you limited the choice between Tobacco and Menthol (or just tobacco) AND you raise the cost of ecigs by taxes or regulation to the point of cigarettes, then it is likely that cigarettes would be a better choice - less hassle.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,314
1
83,835
So-Cal
None. ...

None - ...

Oh I'm sure there would be Some Drop in Teen Use.

But the Problem is "some" Isn't a very Scientific term. And the FDA, CDC and of the NIH are supposed to be making Evaluations based on Scientific Data when it comes to Rule Making regarding Public Health at the Population Level.

It just seems Unusual that the Expected Value for Teen use reduction Isn't really part of the Narrative when talk of Banning Flavors comes up.

And I wonder why No One asks Senators just how much Reduction they Hope to achieved from a Flavor Ban?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: stols001

Kent C

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 12, 2009
26,547
60,050
NW Ohio US
It just seems Unusual that the Expected Value for Teen use reduction Isn't really part of the Narrative when talk of Banning Flavors comes up.

Huh? Did you read the link in the original post??

The wide variety of flavors has been cited as a top reason youths start using e-cigs.

The logical corollary being - that banning flavors would result in teen use reduction
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: stols001

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,314
1
83,835
So-Cal
...

The logical corollary being - that banning flavors would result in teen use reduction

But once Again. How Much?

It's going to be Almost Impossible to Win against a Flavor Ban because those for it are Using just what I Quoted as Exhibit "A". And all we seem to be able to do is Weak Counter-Punching.

I say we should get on the Offensive for Once. And force those who want to Bring a Flavor Ban to provide Verifiable Evidence of how Effective it will be.

Or is this going to be another "We have to Pass It to know what's in it" thing?
 

Rossum

Eleutheromaniac
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 14, 2013
16,081
105,222
SE PA
The flavors and kids thing is a fake issue. Try this thought experiment:

Set up a Juul with liquid that has a good flavor but little or no visible vapor. Set up another Juul with no flavoring but normal visible vapor. Then let a kid who vapes try both as ask which he prefers. I hypothesize that most of the time a kid will prefer the unflavored with normal visible vapor because--it's the clouds bro'.
A Juul isn't going to produce CloudZ no matter what you put in it. The appeal of the Juul isn't clouds, and it isn't flavor; the appeal is the highly effective nic-hit that device delivers.
 

Marc411

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 17, 2014
4,737
10,918
Windy City
I say we should get on the Offensive for Once.

Now that's a statement I can get behind! With so many vapors in one place I just don't understated the inaction as we have strength in numbers. The flavor survey is a prime example, the site has popups all the time but rarely do I see one that is directed towards advocacy. The flavor survey should have been front and center for every member to see on ECF.
 
Last edited:

sofarsogood

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Oct 12, 2014
5,553
14,167
A Juul isn't going to produce CloudZ no matter what you put in it. The appeal of the Juul isn't clouds, and it isn't flavor; the appeal is the highly effective nic-hit that device delivers.
I said thought experiment. Juul wouldn't make a product. The products would be modified to enable the experiment. I'm proposing that iif the experiment were done the flavorless Juul would be prefered over the low visible vapor version by kids because they care more about visiible vapor than flavor. If flavor was so important kids wouldn't start smoking. Cigarettes taste awful.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: stols001

Rossum

Eleutheromaniac
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 14, 2013
16,081
105,222
SE PA
I said thought experiment. Juul wouldn't make a product.
Then why did you explicitly specify setting up two Juuls with different liquids? ;)

If flavor was so important kids wouldn't start smoking. Cigarettes taste awful.
If big clouds were so important, kids wouldn't start smoking. Cigarettes don't make big clouds.

IMO, neither flavors or clouds are the primary factors; instead it's doing something cool that's forbidden, and nicotine...

Big clouds with no nicotine may have been a factor for while a year or two ago, but that seems to have been a passing fad.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: stols001
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread