The ALA's disgraceful actions: Causes?

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woolfe99

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Thank you for the positive feedback. However, while the analogy is excellent, it might not be one that fits into a quick soundbite. But if anyone wants to use it, please do so. I'd advise condensing it as much as possible.

On a related topic, to illustrate the kind of resistance we are getting out there, after I had posted to this thread I went over to quitnet.com, a quitting site I haven't visited in years. Sure enough, there was a short e-cig thread right up top. You can see my post in the thread and the forum admin's posts. I expect my posts to be deleted in short order, as e-cigs are apparently not Holy Writ Large there.

The QuitNet Support Forums


- wolf
 

DaliMama

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Agreed Wolf...Well said! I just got a response from the ALA and it's disgusting. Check this out:



Thank you for your email to the American Lung Association. Until the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) determines that e-cigarettes are safe for consumers, the American Lung Association urges consumers not to use these products.



The FDA conducted on limited study in July 2009 and found that the products contained carcinogens and toxic chemicals, including the ingredients found in anti-freeze. A study conducted at Virginia Commonwealth University and published in February 2010 found that e-cigarettes deliver little or no nicotine to users.



For additional information on this topic, we recommend you consult the FDA’s website at - FDA Warns of Health Risks Posed by E-Cigarettes


Thank you for contacting us.


I also posted this on another thread on the forum so if you read it there too, I apologize. I just can't believe they think they are 'helping' us by attempting to ban e-cigs. What a crock! Considering that I was poisoning myself (and those around me) for the past 16 years when I was hooked on regular cigarettes, it is so obvious that these organizations are failing, miserably, to "protect" consumers as they claim.


This is ridiculous and you can bet I am not done protesting their attempts to cram their concern down my throat. Unfortunately for them, I have unlimited minutes on my cell!! :evil: mwahahahaha!!
 

woolfe99

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Organziations like this, and government entities, are very clever in how they deceive. They will tell you that e-cigs "contain" this or that bad thing. They will carefully avoid quantification of it. I suggest if you e-mail them back, ask them if the FDA quantified the amount of carcigens they found, and did they relate them to how much is in regular cigarettes or FDA approved NRT's? My guess is you'll get no response to that. The ALA knows very well the shortcomings of the FDA study, and they are purposefully lying by omission about them. In fact, they are hiding behind the FDA right now, using it as a public front to mask their agenda. In their minds, it's all "for your own good" and so long as they are only lying by omission, the end justifies the means. Still, make them squirm by asking them to quantify it. I mean, there are known carcinogens in many ordinary food products which are consumed on a daily basis, right? Does it have more than those?

- wolf
 

mwa102464

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Ya just like the new health bill, you know what the fine is if an insurance company denies you of insurance per Obama's plan.??? $100 a day, so if someone has cancer they could let them sit for a year to die and it would only cost then $36,500 where as it would cost them say $150,000 to treat them, WTF is this country coming to people, we all need to stand up and fight in my eyes
 

D103

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The core of the issue is the confusion of science with morality. The best way to explain it is the analogy with sex education. Consider the following three things: sex, condoms, abstinence. If we characterize the risk of sex as unwanted pregnancy + STD's, condoms reduce the risk of those things by 98%, and abstinence reduces the risk of those things by 100%. If we are going to look at the issue from a purely scientific perspective, with public health and safety as the priority, then the best advice is to teach abstinence + condoms, i.e. to tell people that abstinence is safest, but if you are not going to abstain, then use a condom. The reason some people advocate abstinence only is obviously because of morality. Some people believe that non-marital sex is immoral, and accordingly, their form of "education" is to give you advice informed by their sense of morality, rather than what is necessarily in your best interests from the standpoint of health and safety.

The analogy is near perfect. Sex, condoms, abstinence = smoking, e-cigarettes, quitting nicotine entirely. Again, if the concern is public health and the framework is science, you will advise people to quit nicotine entirely, but tell them that if they are unable or unwilling to do so, then use e-cigarettes, smokeless, NRT's, etc. on a long term basis. Smoking is obviously a health and safety issue and really shouldn't be considered a "moral" issue. I'm sure that organizations like ALA would agree with that in principle. However, the truth is that the anti-smoking campaign, which was originally based on science and was entirely in the interests of promoting public health and safety, relied heavily on using very extreme rhetoric to scare people into quitting. That rhetoric in turn rubbed off on the general population, and now it has implictly become a moral issue in society. And as with any morality, there are no shades of gray. Cigarettes are not merely bad for your health, they are "evil." Accordingly, anything associated with cigarettes - including nicotine - is "evil." They might tolerate NRT's because they don't resemble cigarettes and everyone using them is supposed to taper them off in a month or two. But e-cigs resemble too closely the cigarette anti-christ, and worse yet, most people who substitute them for regular cigs have no intention of quitting.

"Quit or die" is black and white thinking. It isn't science. It's morality.

This isn't about science and public health any more and hasn't been for a long time. Even organizations like ALA, which was once a pioneer in informing the public about the dangers of tobacco smoking, have now eschewed their ethical responsibility to provide accurate information to the public in favor of participating in the ongoing moral crusade against tobacco which has swept society.

It just isn't rational, not any more. And unfortunately, there is little that can be done about it except to hope that e-cigs become so damn common and popular before the government gets around to banning them that it becomes impossible and impractical to ban them.

- wolf

Good post and I agree with your point of view - I especially liked the reference to the 'cigarette anti-Christ' - sadly it is true. I also believe one other thing you didn't mention (and this was pointed out in another thread by another of our members-I apologize to him/her for not remembering a name right now) that is "our suffering and remorse" When the "moral" component gets into the mix then those locked into that belief system want (or are unfortunately taught) to expect 'remorse, sincere remorse and if there is suffering along with it all the better. Therein lies another problem - we're just too damn happy about our new found gadgets and our improved health. We smile, we laugh, taste is better, we smell better (well some of us - sorry Jim W.) sex is better, we BREATHE better -and what's worse we're talking about it - to anyone who'll listen!!
Where is the 'remorse, where's the suffering' To a true 'Moralist' who firmly believes smoking of any kind to be evil, then we have been once again duped by Satan and are eternally doomed. Those are the exreme anti's and I feel strongly there is nothing you can say to that mindset - and Please don't say 'pass the kool-aid'.
 

woolfe99

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Good post and I agree with your point of view - I especially liked the reference to the 'cigarette anti-Christ' - sadly it is true. I also believe one other thing you didn't mention (and this was pointed out in another thread by another of our members-I apologize to him/her for not remembering a name right now) that is "our suffering and remorse" When the "moral" component gets into the mix then those locked into that belief system want (or are unfortunately taught) to expect 'remorse, sincere remorse and if there is suffering along with it all the better. Therein lies another problem - we're just too damn happy about our new found gadgets and our improved health. We smile, we laugh, taste is better, we smell better (well some of us - sorry Jim W.) sex is better, we BREATHE better -and what's worse we're talking about it - to anyone who'll listen!!
Where is the 'remorse, where's the suffering' To a true 'Moralist' who firmly believes smoking of any kind to be evil, then we have been once again duped by Satan and are eternally doomed. Those are the exreme anti's and I feel strongly there is nothing you can say to that mindset - and Please don't say 'pass the kool-aid'.

Yup, you just captured another important nuance. This is why NRT's are marketed in bland packaging as "medicine," right? The truth about nic gum, for example, is that in most cases it will only be successful in the longrun if people pick it up as a long term substitute for smoking. Yet it isn't "attractive" the way it is marketed. It now comes in 2 or 3 flavors AFAIK, though for years it was only flavorless. Imagine if they had thirty flavors and attractive packaging! Oh my, people aren't supposed to enjoy this stuff, are they? And then comes the rationalization to cover up the fact that we're moralizing: all of this "appeal" is going to get kids hooked on nicotine, right?

Anyway, good point. We must purge the evil inside of us that is cigarettes. In medieval times, they purged evil by burning the heretic at the stake, most decidedly an unpleasant experience. Nowadays, we aren't so cruel. We just tell people that quitting must be unpleasant, and if we can't take it, that's our own fault for being so weak and we may as well go back to smoking and die.

- wolf
 

StormFinch

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sherid

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Neither cigarettes nor e cigs should be banned. We are given the ability to make choices as an inherent part of being human. To leave those choices, both good and bad, to anyone other than ourselves is to leave behind that freedom. Fight hard against these groups, starting with universal boycots of all contributions to them. Money speaks. Cover the media with criticisms of them, and contact all politicians who may help. I participate daily in Dr. Siegel's discussion on his blog at The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary and have asked him to gather other noted doctors and others to possibly file their own Amicus.....whatever it's called as well as make some real noise. You have to start somewhere.
 

sherid

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Those of you emailing anyone in that group are wasting time. They don't want ANYTHING that resembles smoking and is not an NRT product from the drug companies. They don't want people to use e cigs because it is enjoyable, and that is contradictory to all that these modern Puritans care about. It is NOT about health.
 

G_Jones

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I'm alarmed and disgusted by the fact that these groups exist and want to manipulate laws and legislation for obvious private agendas.

I'm also personally offended that anyone at all would want to prevent the public from accessing a safer alternative to legally protected poisons. I mean, they might as well be running up to people on the street and hitting them with bats, although that might have less negative affect on one's health than remaining a cigarette user.

I also find the whole argument about banning "flavored" tobaccos absolutely flawed, since I don't see any equivalent interest in banning "flavored" alcohols, such as wine, liqour, etc.

I can't discern any sincere interest in protecting the public health from those tactics or any of these groups when there are actual things that do threaten public safety that should be addressed, such as hormones in milk, toxins in drinking water, etc.

What is obvious is private interests manipulating governments for their own commercial interests, which I believe is a crime and we ought to see some people go to jail for that kind of activity, as it is an abuse of governments and legal systems.

These kind of frivolous laws are openly discrimatory against a segment of the population, and it is horrifying than countries have banned something as harmless as an e-cig. Imagine a country banning coffee, or plastic spoons or fuzzy hats, or purple spray paint. Such legislation is not only frivolous, but discriminatory, and wastes tax dollars. Outlawing a harmless item simply because it is commercial competition for a corporation is a horrible abuse of power, it is a waste of government time and money. Petty legislation is an insult to everyone.
 

DC2

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I'm alarmed and disgusted by the fact that these groups exist and want to manipulate laws and legislation for obvious private agendas.

I'm also personally offended that anyone at all would want to prevent the public from accessing a safer alternative to legally protected poisons. I mean, they might as well be running up to people on the street and hitting them with bats, although that might have less negative affect on one's health than remaining a cigarette user.

I also find the whole argument about banning "flavored" tobaccos absolutely flawed, since I don't see any equivalent interest in banning "flavored" alcohols, such as wine, liqour, etc.

I can't discern any sincere interest in protecting the public health from those tactics or any of these groups when there are actual things that do threaten public safety that should be addressed, such as hormones in milk, toxins in drinking water, etc.

What is obvious is private interests manipulating governments for their own commercial interests, which I believe is a crime and we ought to see some people go to jail for that kind of activity, as it is an abuse of governments and legal systems.

These kind of frivolous laws are openly discrimatory against a segment of the population, and it is horrifying than countries have banned something as harmless as an e-cig. Imagine a country banning coffee, or plastic spoons or fuzzy hats, or purple spray paint. Such legislation is not only frivolous, but discriminatory, and wastes tax dollars. Outlawing a harmless item simply because it is commercial competition for a corporation is a horrible abuse of power, it is a waste of government time and money. Petty legislation is an insult to everyone.
Well ****ing said.

Before I came here, before I started using electronic cigarettes, before I learned what kind of garbage is going on in our government today, I was blissfullly unaware and quite happy in life.

Now I am sick, and disgusted, and feeling abused.
 

CaptJay

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Apparently these people seem less upset by people who snort drugs or smoke them (an most drug smokers use tobacco so it burns slower btw) than they are by cigarettes. I say apparently because I have seen no outcry against 'certain substances' which are ILLEGAL to use. Nicotine and tobacco are NOT illegal - we (the consumer of tobacco/nicotine) are not doing anything against the law.
If our lungs are so important to this organisation then it should be at full out war with Big Tobacco. I dont see advertisements from the ALA in newspapers decrying the government for not banning tobacco outright, I see no lobbyists from them (or ASH) demanding the powers that be make tobacco an illegal substance.
Until that day, I will continue to believe that all of these so-called 'health activitsts' have another agenda.
Where is the outcry over sugar?
Where is the outcry over salt?
WHY are our childrens breakfast cereals crammed with both these poisons?
Are they aware of the massive increase in diabetes among Americans?
Where is the outcry over toxic emissions from cars/power plants? Are our lungs only to be protected from tobacco smoke?
Why are smokers targeted? Because we are an easy target - a soft target - a tax cow with a limited life span? Or because they stereotype smokers as being on the lower rung of society and less educated, less likely to 'make a fuss' or be in positions of authority to challenge? (ASH btw think exactly this)
I want places like the ALA and FDA to work FOR me, to be trusted and a place I know I will get good, truthful info, and see them not afraid of government as they crusade for our health.
I dont see that though.
What I see is institutionalised bigotry and shoddy research; half truths and agendas. They really should add a 'sponsored by..' byline to their titles.

/disgusted
 

Haytoni

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Now you know, they won't ban cigarettes, think of all the money the states and the nat'l gov. would loose. It's not about health, it's all about the mighty buck. They way B.O. is talking putting a VAT tax on everything. Could be 20 percent..........think of all the money lost if they banned cig. booze soda, chips, you name it.......Now all they can do is ban the E-Cig, cause no taxes, it'll come back on the market ..and when it does, you're looking at big bucks. Plus all our nice vendors down the tubes, out of a job. Big Tobacco will have it in their control. Yep I'm glad I am a senior senior, I lived in the good times, least my generation did anyway. Lets just take it one day at a time.
 

Haytoni

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Apparently these people seem less upset by people who snort drugs or smoke them (an most drug smokers use tobacco so it burns slower btw) than they are by cigarettes. I say apparently because I have seen no outcry against 'certain substances' which are ILLEGAL to use. Nicotine and tobacco are NOT illegal - we (the consumer of tobacco/nicotine) are not doing anything against the law.
If our lungs are so important to this organisation then it should be at full out war with Big Tobacco. I dont see advertisements from the ALA in newspapers decrying the government for not banning tobacco outright, I see no lobbyists from them (or ASH) demanding the powers that be make tobacco an illegal substance.
Until that day, I will continue to believe that all of these so-called 'health activitsts' have another agenda.
Where is the outcry over sugar?
Where is the outcry over salt?
WHY are our childrens breakfast cereals crammed with both these poisons?
Are they aware of the massive increase in diabetes among Americans?
Where is the outcry over toxic emissions from cars/power plants? Are our lungs only to be protected from tobacco smoke?
Why are smokers targeted? Because we are an easy target - a soft target - a tax cow with a limited life span? Or because they stereotype smokers as being on the lower rung of society and less educated, less likely to 'make a fuss' or be in positions of authority to challenge? (ASH btw think exactly this)
I want places like the ALA and FDA to work FOR me, to be trusted and a place I know I will get good, truthful info, and see them not afraid of government as they crusade for our health.
I dont see that though.
What I see is institutionalised bigotry and shoddy research; half truths and agendas. They really should add a 'sponsored by..' byline to their titles.

/disgusted
Capt Jay, your on the same page as I. Also add California, wants to legalize canabus, hope I spelled it right. For tax reasons only. Go figure.
 
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