The Canadian Senate Reads The New Vaping Bill

[chuck333]

The senate has completed the first reading of bill S-5 to amend the laws to provide for the separation of vape products and tobacco products. Vape will be governed by the Consumer Protection Agency instead of Health Canada. Vape and instruments used to administer vape will become legal but regulated. The intent is to continue to make vape available to adults to aid in their quit smoking endeavors and for use as a smoke alternative while protecting youth from vape and tobacco. It all sounds pretty good but I have little faith in our governments to do things right. It probably will be totally ....ed up by the time it passes. The full text of the bill at first reading can be found at:
Senate Government Bill - Bill S-5 - First Reading (42-1)
The bill will be amended several times before passage. Every nit-wit in government will get a kick at the can. Take the time to make your views known to your local representative.

 

[ceeceeisme]

...It all sounds pretty good but I have little faith in our governments to do things right. It probably will be totally ....ed up by the time it passes.....

Gee, can't imagine why...

But, joking aside, it does look good for us for things to mostly continue on as they have been. Time will certainly tell but I'm maintaining a positive outlook on all this. We do indeed seem to be following the British approach of Tobacco Harm Reduction as opposed to our unfortunate friends to the south who are facing Draconian regulations with the FDA's approach.

Can't wait to see how this all plays out.

 

[Hitmetwice]

Thank-you for this Chuck333.
Lots of reading there. Cheers.

 

[ceeceeisme]

Yes there certainly is... I read the bill last night in its entirety and found it intellectually stimulating.
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not, I was being facetious.

I don't see anything bad in there and as long as there are no major changes, things should chug along much the same as they have.

My major concern with this bill was that nicotine would be all of a sudden out of reach to the DIYer forcing me to possibly stock pile for future use. I do see a proviso where that could happen (somewhere down the road but hopefully with lots of prior warning), but right now the way it reads, it doesn't look like they will go that route.

 

[Hitmetwice]

Wow! You read the whole thing???
I read for about 20mins. looked to the right
and saw the scroll bar was only down about an inch(one tenth) of the way from the top. I'll have to take your word on how/what you read it to say. English is my primary language so the legal speak really wasn't telling me much anyway. Oh well.

 

[ceeceeisme]

I actually did read the whole thing in one sitting. It took about 2.5 hours because I went back through several sections to make sure I had not missed something after I got to the bottom and examined the schedules.

I admit that it was dry.

Drier than a popcorn fart on the desert

When I was younger my Saturday nights were far more interesting.

 

[chuck333]

There's a Youtube video that goes over it. It's in 2 parts and can be found at:
Nova Scotia Vapers Public Group | Facebook

 

[retired1]

Lovely. They're lumping vaping under the same umbrella for the Non-smokers’ Health Act. In other words, where the government already prohibits smoking, vaping will fall under the same rules.

Certain flavors are also banned (Confectionery, Dessert, "That which shall not be discussed on ECF", Soft Drink and Energy Drink).

As a start, it's a rotten piece of legislation and I suspect it'll get worse. Sure, they're going to make the sale of e-liquids containing nicotine OK, but I'd wager by the time they're done with this stinkeroo, you'll only be able to purchase unflavored e-liquids.

 

[ceeceeisme]

Lovely. They're lumping vaping under the same umbrella for the Non-smokers’ Health Act. In other words, where the government already prohibits smoking, vaping will fall under the same rules.

Certain flavors are also banned (Confectionery, Dessert, "That which shall not be discussed on ECF", Soft Drink and Energy Drink).

As a start, it's a rotten piece of legislation and I suspect it'll get worse. Sure, they're going to make the sale of e-liquids containing nicotine OK, but I'd wager by the time they're done with this stinkeroo, you'll only be able to purchase unflavored e-liquids.

Flavours are not going to be banned under the wording of this bill - only the advertising and promotion of flavours

Let us not forget this bill is all about "protecting the children".

Flavouring is listed in SCHEDULE 3 which specifically refers to Section 30, subsection 48 and 49 which strictly deal with labeling and advertising.

30.‍48 (1) No person shall promote a vaping product set out in column 2 of Schedule 3, including by means of the packaging, through an indication or illustration, including a brand element, that could cause a person to believe that the product has a flavour set out in column 1.

(2) No person shall sell a vaping product set out in column 2 of Schedule 3 if an indication or illustration referred to in subsection (1) is displayed on the product or on its package.

30.‍49 (1) The Governor in Council may, by order, amend Schedule 3 by adding, amending or deleting
(a) the name or description of a flavour or vaping product; or
(b) a reference to all vaping products, with or without exceptions.

(2) A flavour or vaping product may be described by reference to a document produced by a body or person other than the Minister, either as the document exists on a particular date or as it is amended from time to time.

So to cut through all this bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo, what they are mandating is that actual flavours cannot be named on the package or in advertising and promotion. In other words, e-liquids will have names like "Down the Lazy River" or "Northern Nights" and as it stands, many already do.

What will be banned from e-liquids is listed in SCHEDULE 2 and for the most part, are already not included as ingredients in the vast majority of commercial e-liquids.

 

[retired1]

Prohibition — sale
(2) No person shall sell a vaping product set out in column 2 of Schedule 3 if an indication or illustration referred to in subsection (1) is displayed on the product or on its package.

Amendment of Schedule 3

30.‍49 (1) The Governor in Council may, by order, amend Schedule 3 by adding, amending or deleting
(a) the name or description of a flavour or vaping product; or
(b) a reference to all vaping products, with or without exceptions.

So... How are you going to advertise the flavor if it's prohibited from even being mentioned on the packaging? Especially for DIY purposes?

The wording is horrid, the intent obvious, and I don't expect it to get any better.

 

[chuck333]

I'm thinking they are more trying to protect copyrighted flavours and prevent flavours that would appeal to youth. There are many flavours that actually were meant to mimic copyrighted flavours and actually have labels that were stolen from these products. Of course bubble-gum and stuff like that would be a no-no because it would appeal to youth's tastes. I agree it does leave way too much room for bureaucratic discretion. Places where vaping will be allowed is left to the discretion of the provinces. With talk of cafes to indulge other inhalants that are soon to become legal the government would have a tough time making vape lounges illegal or to prohibit sampling e juices, especially if samples are nicotine free. I think the government is stuck with the task of creating a compromise where everyone will find some things they like and some things they don't.

 

[ceeceeisme]

So... How are you going to advertise the flavor if it's prohibited from even being mentioned on the packaging? Especially for DIY purposes?

30.‍49 (2) A flavour or vaping product may be described by reference to a document produced by a body or person other than the Minister, either as the document exists on a particular date or as it is amended from time to time

More mumbo-jumbo letting you know that for descriptive purposes, other means are available if you are creative.

And no worries about DIY, food grade flavoring does not fall under the scope of this bill.

 

[chuck333]

None of the ingredients used in DIY are at all unique to vape. VG, PG & food grade flavourings are all used for purposes other than vape. Walmart sells VG and I'm pretty sure they don't mean to cater to vapers. The only ingredient that might be questionable is nicotine but even that is used as a pesticide.

 

[Hitmetwice]

If flavours are still allowed in liquids but not allowed to be described in any way on the label, it will simply mean the shop will need a separate binder with the entire line-up listed along with flavour profiles for each liquid. It is already being done this way due to the wacky names on some of the liquids out there.
Online sales may be tricky if there's a pic of the bottle with a flavour profile beneath it on the same page. (or not) Dunno.

Selling DIY flavours out of a vape shop might be more tricky if they cannot be labelled as banana or vanilla etc. The label does need to describe what is in fact in the bottles at some point/level doesn't it? Thinking..."truth in advertising" here?

 

[ceeceeisme]

If flavours are still allowed in liquids but not allowed to be described in any way on the label, it will simply mean the shop will need a separate binder with the entire line-up listed along with flavour profiles for each liquid. It is already being done this way due to the wacky names on some of the liquids out there.
Online sales may be tricky if there's a pic of the bottle with a flavour profile beneath it on the same page. (or not) Dunno.

Selling DIY flavours out of a vape shop might be more tricky if they cannot be labelled as banana or vanilla etc. The label does need to describe what is in fact in the bottles at some point/level doesn't it? Thinking..."truth in advertising" here?

You bring up some valid points but perhaps what should be considered is, what exactly constitutes "advertising" and what is the legal definition under the terms of this bill?

Advertising is loosely defined as the activity of producing advertisements for commercial products or services. I feel it more accurately would be defined as a tool or conduit to announce or praise a product or service in some public medium of communication in order to encourage people to buy or use it.

So working with this definition, would having a website listing all the e-liquid your business offers (with their respective descriptions), be considered advertising? Or would this be considered a standard course of business that does not necessarily constitute advertising for any other commodity or service which is not regulated?

This is a concept that is fairly straight forward and one that I do not have a definitive answer for.

As for food grade flavouring, there are no restrictive regulations with regards to advertising or illustrations on the packaging or otherwise. Selling these products in a vape store does not change that as they are a product designed for ingestion, not inhalation and are governed by a different set of rules (specifically The Food and Drugs Act).

 

[ceeceeisme]

There is something else I would like to point out about Bill S-5:

This is currently in its first reading in the Senate, not being debated in the House of Commons.

And as many of us know, the Senate is the King of Rubber Stamps if there ever was one. This should pass as it stands with very little or no changes at all (not saying it will, just that it should, all things considered).

 

[northhar]

Lovely. They're lumping vaping under the same umbrella for the Non-smokers’ Health Act. In other words, where the government already prohibits smoking, vaping will fall under the same rules.

Certain flavors are also banned (Confectionery, Dessert, "That which shall not be discussed on ECF", Soft Drink and Energy Drink).

As a start, it's a rotten piece of legislation and I suspect it'll get worse. Sure, they're going to make the sale of e-liquids containing nicotine OK, but I'd wager by the time they're done with this stinkeroo, you'll only be able to purchase unflavored e-liquids.

I read only a few pages so far.. This Bill S-5 is just adding vaping to the Tobacco Act by renaming the Tobacco Act.. So you have to know or read the Tobacco act in order to connect the parts that refer to the Tobacco Act and it's relation to vaping...

It seems this will make vaping products appear in plain packaging.. since this is what is being done to tobacco products with this Bill. I do agree that Bill S-5 is a rotten piece of legislation.
It is another patchwork law to roll vaping into existing tobacco law..

I took a look at the flavors banned..
Confectionery.. A sweet prepared food, such as candy or cake. ..So goodbye sweet ejuice!
Dessert... sweet food, as cake, pudding, ice cream, or fruit
In one word the rest of the sweet flavors and fruit are gone!

Not bad using only 2 words which total less than 7 syllables Canada is producing a law as bad or much worse than the FDA fiasco.

Edit: I looked at the videos put out by Regulator Watch and it seems these flavors will be sold but not named...

I think I need some time under my bed.. I can still breathe while my head is buried..

 

[ceeceeisme]

I read only a few pages so far.. This Bill S-5 is just adding vaping to the Tobacco Act by renaming the Tobacco Act.. So you have to know or read the Tobacco act in order to connect the parts that refer to the Tobacco Act and it's relation to vaping...

It seems this will make vaping products appear in plain packaging.. since this is what is being done to tobacco products with this Bill. I do agree that Bill S-5 is a rotten piece of legislation.
It is another patchwork law to roll vaping into existing tobacco law..

I took a look at the flavors banned..
Confectionery.. A sweet prepared food, such as candy or cake. ..So goodbye sweet ejuice!
Dessert... sweet food, as cake, pudding, ice cream, or fruit
In one word the rest of the sweet flavors and fruit are gone!

Not bad using only 2 words which total less than 7 syllables Canada is producing a law as bad or much worse than the FDA fiasco.

Edit: I looked at the videos put out by Regulator Watch and it seems these flavors will be sold but not named...

I think I need some time under my bed.. I can still breathe while my head is buried..

Good grief! FLAVORS ARE NOT BEING BANNED UNDER THE WORDING OF THIS BILL - please go back and read the entire thread in order to understand this.

I find it interesting that people will bandy opinions about without having actually taken the time to read the document in its entirety. One does not need to reference the Tobacco Act to understand the wording of Bill S-5. Making the statement, "Canada is producing a law as bad or much worse than the FDA fiasco" is so completely wrong it's actually funny. Our proposed regulations are almost fully diametrically opposite to the FDA's Deeming Regulations.

 

[retired1]

I read the document.

I also don't trust the government to implement common sense rules when it comes to e-cigarettes. They're more interested in catering to the idjits who smoke that other stuff.

 

[ceeceeisme]

I read the document.

I also don't trust the government to implement common sense rules when it comes to e-cigarettes. They're more interested in catering to the idjits who smoke that other stuff.

I believe in this case they are more interested in catering to the idjits who don't smoke, who happen to be in the majority among the Canadian adult population.

I'm not saying I agree with everything in the bill as I see loopholes, as one would expect, that can be closed going forward at the "discretion of the Minister". While this type of statement is common to most legislation it also signifies that essential changes can be made to the body of the law without consultation of parliament.

That's what worries me.