The Dangers of ‘Public Health’...

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Kent C

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What was once a concern about public goods has transformed into a social crusade with a political agenda.

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/regulation/2015/9/regulation-v38n3-4.pdf

This is a viewpoint of the 'big picture' of "public health" from a non-collectivist viewpoint. While there is a passage regarding ecigarettes (see below), it discusses the history and some of the philosophy of 'public health' from it's early concerns with actual 'public goods' to the paternalism of today. Not so much concerned with the safety of goods but rather a prescription for certain behaviors or lifestyles that the 'experts' in public health consider safe, or that promote public health. Long, but substantive and points to many of the things discussed here....


"Until late in the 19th century, public health
was by and large concerned with what
economists call “public goods.” ...National defense
is the most common example: it’s hard for an army to protect
only certain homes that pay a private “defense fee.” Similarly,
basic sanitation and controlling epidemics of infectious diseases
or antibiotic resistance may be examples of public goods because
they benefit everyone’s health once they are available."

Most of us would have little problem if that is what 'public health' was today.

"Public health, however, has always been tempted by authoritarian
drifts. In the 19th and early 20th century, “public hygiene”
became “racial hygiene” and “social hygiene.” A parallel development
was the eugenics movement, which aimed at preventing
people who were deemed “unfit” from passing on their genetic
defects—and sometimes simply eliminating those people altogether.

In America, both public health and eugenics flourished during
the Progressive Era. Although the two movements were not
identical, they had many similarities and shared promoters. The
founder of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, Harvey Wiley,
figured among the supporters of a Chicago surgeon who, in the
late 1910s, “permitted or hastened the deaths of at least six infants
he diagnosed as eugenically defective,” according to University of
Michigan historian Martin Pernick."
----

"Public health now encompasses noncommunicable diseases
and “lifestyle epidemics,” such as the use of tobacco and alcohol,
as well as obesity—matters that are very far removed from public
goods concerns. Also included are many conditions or forms of
behavior, such as riding a motorcycle, driving a car, owning firearms,
engaging in “substance abuse,” having imperfect access to
medical care, being poor, and so forth. Public health means health
care and everything that is related to health writ large. (my emphasis)

Moreover, “social justice” has become an essential feature of
public health: “Social justice,” writes Turnock, “is the foundation
of public health.”"

Social justice - perhaps, but it's a stretch. Individual justice - nope.
---

"tobacco consumers cannot want something that
carries only costs (the purchase price of tobacco products plus the
health risks), so tobacco use must have some benefit as judged by
the consumers themselves. It won’t do for public health advocates
to respond simply that smoker demand arises from addiction, not
desire for pleasure; many smokers stop smoking and half of nonsmokers
are former smokers—so “tobacco addiction” isn’t destiny.

Moreover, everything one likes is difficult to abandon, but that
doesn’t mean people are addicted to everything they like." (original emphasis)

This aspect - the assumption of 'no benefit' (which has been brought up by Conley and Phillips?) - points to why smoking still persists, despite all the 'danger' promoted by our public health officials, and why ecigarettes lessen those dangers but will still be demand regardless of regulation.

"Another argument, at one time overexploited by the antismoking
movement, is that the consumer is incompetent at
maximizing his utility because he lacks information about the
risks of tobacco use. This line of argument was abandoned when
researchers discovered that consumers generally overestimate the
health risk of smoking. Moreover, nobody would seem more
motivated than the individual himself in obtaining optimal
information (considering the cost of information) about the
choices that affect his own life.

"Yet an individual probably remains in the best position to make choices
regarding his own life, if only because anybody else—including
politicians and bureaucrats—is subject to the same cognitive
limitations.

"In practice, public health experts and activists resemble Plato’s
philosopher kings. They reign, subsidized, in universities and
government health institutions, ostensibly knowing what is
good for society and willing to impose it by force."

This is what almost every thread here exemplifies.

The ecig citation:

"Slippery slopes are another implication. Some people don’t
believe in slippery slopes, often because they don’t understand the
logic of institutions. Government intervention calls for more intervention.
Consumers become more and more dependent on coercive
organizations like the FDA. The whole process creates and feeds
a constituency of subsidized public health experts who will make
sure that more bans and regulations are requested and enacted. A
good example is the current push for banning electronic cigarettes.
Even from the point of view of medical science, such a ban appears
about as scientific as smoking bans for parks and beaches.

Interestingly, public health itself can be seen as the product of
a slippery political slope. It is barely enumerated powers that have
allowed the federal government to enter this field. Since “health”
is not mentioned a single time in the U.S. Constitution, the federal
government’s intervention in public health has been justified by
citing the general welfare and commerce clauses."
 

Kent C

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The only "general welfare" clause in the constitution pertains to the power to lay taxes. I would argue, as did Madison, that it did not give the federal government blanket power to spend tax money on whatever might be viewed as promoting the general welfare.

In Federalist #41

"Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general welfare."

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter."

And.... not the only time he had to explain that :- )


“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the
Constitution which granted a right to Congress of
expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of
their constituents” (James Madison, 4 Annals of Congress
179 [1794]).Today, at least two-thirds of a $2.5 trillion
federal budget is spent on the “objects of benevolence.”
That includes Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, aid to
higher education, farm and business subsidies,welfare, ad
nauseam.

A few years later, Madison’s vision was expressed by
Representative William Giles of Virginia, who condemned
a relief measure for fire victims. Giles insisted
that it was neither the purpose nor a right of Congress
to “attend to what generosity and humanity require, but
to what the Constitution and their duty require”
(http://tuftsprimarysource.org/?p=163).

In 1827 Davy Crockett was elected to the House of
Representatives. During his term of office a $10,000
relief measure was proposed to assist the widow of a
naval officer. Crockett eloquently opposed the measure
saying, “Mr. Speaker: I have as much respect for the
memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the
suffering of the living, if there be, as any man in this
House, but we must not permit our respect for the dead
or our sympathy for part of the living to lead us into an
act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go
into an argument to prove that Congress has not the
power to appropriate this money as an act of charity.
Every member on this floor knows it. We have the right
as individuals, to give away as much of our own money
as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we
have no right to appropriate a dollar of the public
money
” (from his famous “Not Yours To Give” speech,
originally published in The Life of Colonel David Crockett
by Edward Sylvester Ellis, www.fee.org/library/books/
notyours.asp).
 
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Kent C

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Still seeing need / perception of need for federal militia (or national armed force) as contrary to unalienable rights of individuals.

You truly haven't a clue. "That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among men deriving their just powers by the consent of the governed."

It is why gov'ts are formed - at least gov'ts that hold individual rights rather than collective rights as supreme.

National defense and the Justice system protect and uphold those rights against attack foreign or domestic, respectively. That's basically the only two legitimate functions of gov't at the federal level. Local and state police forces who feed the local, state and federal justice system, are the other legitimate function.

As far as how it relates to vaping and smoking in public... I was responding to Andria's comments regarding the founders' view on majorities, which then relates back to how majorities are allowed to trample the rights of minorities - smokers and vapers - iow, they shouldn't be able to do that given the founders' ideas and the Constitution. According to the founders, mob rule shouldn't happen.

The 'democratic part' (the word "democracy" never is mentioned in the Constitution) was about the fairest way to elect representatives. But... those representatives were not supposed to enact laws that violated rights by majority votes or otherwise. And other than the obvious exceptions, they didn't for about 120 years.

It is only when 'promote the general welfare' became 'provide for the general welfare' that "public good", along with public health became an 'issue' - problem (tip of the hat to bigdancehawk) - where the principles of individual rights were trumped by the utilitarian 'greatest good' - never any part of the founders original intent nor the Constitution. Even national defense was intended to protect individual rights, since only individuals have them, not 'society'. Society doesn't exist and doesn't have "rights". No group does, only individuals - by their nature as humans.
 

CarolT

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You truly haven't a clue. "That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among men deriving their just powers by the consent of the governed."

It is why gov'ts are formed - at least gov'ts that hold individual rights rather than collective rights as supreme.

National defense and the Justice system protect and uphold those rights against attack foreign or domestic, respectively. That's basically the only two legitimate functions of gov't at the federal level. Local and state police forces who feed the local, state and federal justice system, are the other legitimate function.

As far as how it relates to vaping and smoking in public... I was responding to Andria's comments regarding the founders' view on majorities, which then relates back to how majorities are allowed to trample the rights of minorities - smokers and vapers - iow, they shouldn't be able to do that given the founders' ideas and the Constitution. According to the founders, mob rule shouldn't happen.

The 'democratic part' (the word "democracy" never is mentioned in the Constitution) was about the fairest way to elect representatives. But... those representatives were not supposed to enact laws that violated rights by majority votes or otherwise. And other than the obvious exceptions, they didn't for about 120 years.

It is only when 'promote the general welfare' became 'provide for the general welfare' that "public good", along with public health became an 'issue' - problem (tip of the hat to bigdancehawk) - where the principles of individual rights were trumped by the utilitarian 'greatest good' - never any part of the founders original intent nor the Constitution. Even national defense was intended to protect individual rights, since only individuals have them, not 'society'. Society doesn't exist and doesn't have "rights". No group does, only individuals - by their nature as humans.
The point we should be hammering on is that a government that commits fraud to deprive its citizens of their liberties, is a government that is committing acts of war against its own people. It is as unlawful and intolerable as purposely throwing innocent people in prison.
 

Kent C

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And painted this picture to bring up a worst type of case scenario that is not blatantly illegal, and yet that social norms would still be (somewhat) present.

That (social norms - whatever they may be) is the sticking point for most 'traditional' and/or 'religious' conservatives and why they tend to lump vices and crimes in certain instances whether it is promoting laws against certain behavior or just wrinkling their noses. Those type of laws regarding non-right violating behavior leads to the slippery slope doing away with freedoms. The very first 'smoking designated area' did that and led to the mass demonization and further regulations and restrictions.

As I've said before, free minds and markets may 'offend one's sensibilities' but it's not going to harm you or violate your rights. And that's the trade off vs. a police state which mandates or prohibits behavior according to someone's or some group's subjective idea of what is the 'social norm'.

When you or Andria (or me) go into a bank without vaping or cursing (wait... I've cursed in a bank before :- ) ... then we set examples perhaps, but not all will follow. The bank owner of course can make his/her own rules, but risks losing customers as a result. But the gov't should have no say in the matter unless harm is done to others. (and actual harm, not 'hurt feelings' lol )
 

Uma

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Excellent article, thanks for posting!
I agree 100% with the article. They are the epitomy a political organization.
"The basic thrust of public health is to remove decisions from the domain of individual choice."
This destroys the well being of the individual.
 

Kent C

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Here's the point I have never gotten: a public space is for the public, yes? Well, are not smokers also part of "the public"? Why do THEIR rights get trampled? It's as if being a smoker means having ZERO civil rights, nor even being recognized as a human member of "the public."

Seems to me that our founding fathers were quite concerned with the idea that the majority should not trample the rights of the minority.

Andria

http://www.whatourforefathersthought.com/DemoRep.html

"Just after the completion and signing of the Constitution, in reply to a woman's inquiry as to the type of government the Founders had created, Benjamin Franklin said, "A Republic, if you can keep it."

A Republic is representative government ruled by law (the United States Constitution). A Democracy is government ruled by the majority (mob rule). A Republic recognizes the unalienable rights of individuals while Democracies are only concerned with group wants or needs for the good of the public, or in other words social justice."

"Hence it is that democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and in general have been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths... A republic, by which I mean a government in which a scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect and promises the cure for which we are seeking." James Madison, Federalist Papers No. 10 (1787)."

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" Ben Franklin

 

Rossum

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The former is not defining it though. Do you not see this?
Sure it does. If you define it in that manner that actually respects a private property owner's rights, then it's entirely up to the property owner whether smoking, vaping, fornicating, being armed, or whatever is required, optional, or prohibited on/in that property. The only "public" places where government gets to decide whether such things are allowed or not are those actually owned by the government.
 

Kent C

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You can add to the latter collective guilt.
Regards
Mike

Actually 'collective guilt' isn't necessarily an attribute of those who push public good, but only a tool used by them against others to achieve their goals - that and fear mongering. They fail at reasoned arguments, so they use emotion instead....
 

Uma

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Best thread ever!
Here's another quote about property rights that might be of interest.

On property rights: “It is not the right OF property which is protected, but the right TO property. Property per se has no rights; but the individual—the man—has three great rights, equally sacred from arbitrary interference: the right to his life, the right to his liberty, the right to his property . . . . The three rights are so bound to together as to be essentially one right. To give a man his life but deny him his liberty, is to take from him all that makes his life worth living. To give him his liberty but take from him the property which is the fruit and badge of his liberty, is to still leave him a slave” – U.S. Supreme Court Justice George Sutherland.
 

Kent C

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Let me first say that I didn't want to get involved in this.
But yet, here I go...

Consider the following situation.

A poor neighborhood has many liquor stores, peep shows, and other "seedy" establishments.
Not only people of that neighborhood, but those of other more well-to-do neighborhoods frequent them.

Such neighborhoods may attract prostitutes and drug dealers.

People in that neighborhood raising children don't want those establishments there.
They consider that such an environment is not good for their children walking to and from school.

What are they to do?

It's things like this that keep me in state of uncertainty about what I believe.
I'm hoping someone can explain to me the "right" way of handling such situations.

I'll just repeat what I said:

"free minds and markets may 'offend one's sensibilities' but it's not going to harm you or violate your rights. And that's the trade off vs. a police state which mandates or prohibits behavior according to someone's or some group's subjective idea of what is the 'social norm'."

And some might say that the distinction isn't that dramatic - between a culture of freedom and a police state. "Can't there be something in between?"

No. :- ) First we get 'suggestions' that smoking could be bad for "public health". Those suggestions pretty much went unheeded. Then taxes were added - that got some people's attention.... but not enough for the ANTZ.

Then because there were 'smoker's rights' advocates who said even if that's the case, we're only harming ourselves, which is none of your business. Then because health care became more 'socialized' - those smoking (and according to some) were burdening the health care system - which we now know isn't the 'net effect' - smokers were now 'robbing' others via health care.

That wasn't that successful so there HAD to me a more immediate harm done and Carol Browner and the Clinton EPA did some junk science to find that second hand smoke is carcinogenic - which further studies shows that it is not.

But that wasn't quite enough - so the ANTZ and gov't continued their junk science to say that 3000+ people (mainly kids) die of second hand smoke. And the result is all the workplace, park, any 'public' space and even in your own car if there is a kid or pet in it with you - your restricted from smoking under penalty of law. That's a mini police state in that area. And there are other mini police states in other areas.

That above IS the slippery slope in action.

When it comes to neighborhoods like you describe above, there's a difference between 'harming children' (or others) and their 'sensibilities' - this is where parenting comes in - either in finding another place to live or explaining as best as one can what that is all about and why they shouldn't involve themselves in it. And I might add, that's exactly what many brave and smart parents have done - not enough perhaps, but some actually did do that.

I'd also advocate - even though I don't participate in either - legalizing prostitution and drugs. Both involve consenting adults - IF it involves force or children, then it's a crime which should be enforced to the fullest extent.
 
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VapingTommy

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Extremely well - written piece, and I could not agree more. The concept of the "nanny state" is a scary one in my view. I recently heard a man boasting about how he tripped over in the street, and won tens of thousands of pounds (uk) compensation by suing the local council for "failure to maintain street pathways to satisfactory standard".

Doesn't anyone feel the urge to shout "LOOK WHERE YOU ARE GOING MAN?!!!!!"

I believe this over zealous and expanding web of controls and micro-management of daily life all derive from the legal profession, and the fact that most countries' governments were built by lawyers somewhere along the line. Lawyers make money every time someone is sued, (or divorced for that matter, or...... the list is endless). So conflict, blame and division is inherently bred within all western societies for this exact design in my opinion, a deliberate long term move towards relying on those clever rich people of the higher social order, who will come along and sort it all out for us patsy voters/tax payers.
 

Kent C

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So conflict, blame and division is inherently bred within all western societies for this exact design in my opinion

Something happened where almost no one 'admits' or 'takes responsibility' for their actions anymore. Where any hint of responsibility is taken to the highest level of blame by lawyers and media (and comedians), where saying anything can be 'dangerous' and at the same time where crimes with ample evidence are handled in the same manner by not admitting anything.

The result can be where murderers go free, and certain truthful statements that are politically incorrect are high crimes.
 

Kent C

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Even when I was a smoker I would often high-beam someone ahead of me who threw a .... out the window.

Our homeowner's association does not allow fire pits.
It's all for insurance reasons.

I have one anyway.

Anyone 'high beamed' you for it? For some (not me) it's the same as throwing a .... out the window (which I never did - I'd 'field strip' all my butts and throw them in the trash. )

I have at times considered the appointment of Supreme Court Justices to be the most important thing a President does.

True but it's unfortunate that it has come to that. Much earlier in the Republic, (and with a few now named Paul) Representatives and Senators would bring up the Constitution wrt to bills in debate. That no longer happens much. "We'll pass the bill, read it later and if there's a problem with it the Supreme Court can handle it." :facepalm:
 

CarolT

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The property rights argument is not a viable resistance to the health fascists, because the courts always uphold the government's right to "protect public health." The property rights argument is really just a position of surrender and retreat, by those who refuse to attack the government's scientific fraud.

"In most instances, courts require that a discriminatory law be “rationally related” to a “legitimate” government goal. This requirement is very easy for the government to meet, since a discriminatory law will be upheld so long as it is not totally irrational or arbitrary... The court upheld the city and state smoking bans since they were rationally related to the legitimate government goal of protecting the public health... Courts are quick to find that smoke-free legislation is rationally related to a legitimate government goal, since they have long held that protecting the public’s health is one of the most essential functions of government."
http://publichealthlawcenter.org/sites/default/files/resources/tclc-syn-constitution-2008_0.pdf

In fact they're worse than just irrational or arbitrary - they're based on deliberate scientific fraud and flagrant political corruption. They are the product of malice, with an intent to harm smokers' liberties, and "public health" is just a pretext.
 

Kent C

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Excellent article, thanks for posting!
I agree 100% with the article. They are the epitomy a political organization.
"The basic thrust of public health is to remove decisions from the domain of individual choice."
This destroys the well being of the individual.

These are the 'victim hustlers' at work. It's been pointed out many times here. The 'we know what's best for you' factions. One from the Collectivists (the most predominant) - who create victims to take care of, and one from the overly Religious - who wince at anyone doing something that makes themselves happy. And those are the types from which the original immigrants to America (and many of the later ones) ...were escaping.

"How ideology interfaces with public health is an interesting
question. Peter Jacobson recognizes that “most health law/policy
scholars would identify as being on the political left.” Most of
the rest are probably also statists. At least in America, public
health experts may be carrying over some the coercive values of
the nation’s Puritan ancestors. To paraphrase H. L. Mencken’s
characterization of Puritanism, public health experts are subject
to the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, is having fun."
 

bigdancehawk

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Since “health”
is not mentioned a single time in the U.S. Constitution, the federal
government’s intervention in public health has been justified by
citing the general welfare and commerce clauses."

The only "general welfare" clause in the constitution pertains to the power to lay taxes. I would argue, as did Madison, that it did not give the federal government blanket power to spend tax money on whatever might be viewed as promoting the general welfare. Otherwise, the 10th Amendment would have no meaning. Unfortunately, however, there now seem to be no meaningful limitations on what the feds can spend money on. (Although the preamble states that the constitution is being adopted to "promote the general welfare," the US Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the preamble is not a substantive part of the constitution.)
 

Rossum

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1 - wondering how anyone defines public space
That depends on whether you define it in that manner that actually respects a private property owner's rights, or whether you define it in a manner similar to our current government, where any space that the owner makes accessible to strangers for whatever reason becomes a "public" space. ;)
 

Kent C

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That depends on whether you define it in that manner that actually respects a private property owner's rights, or whether you define it in a manner similar to our current government, where any space that the owner makes accessible to strangers for whatever reason becomes a "public" space. ;)

That's the answer, but it isn't going to stop the painstakingly hairsplitting that will ensue ;)
 
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